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Sensible Cruising

83K views 156 replies 54 participants last post by  SV Dayenu 
#1 · (Edited)
"...concerning the Chinese and Sandwich Islanders"

There is a book by Don Casey entitled “Sensible Cruising, the Thoreau Approach”. I had already owned my boat for several years and developed my own ideas about cruising by the time I first read it. I don’t agree entirely with everything Casey has to say; today, I would expand his minimum requirements to include things like a handheld GPS unit for example because two such units are less costly and far more accurate than a cheap sextant and the necessary tables, and let’s face it: How many people nowadays have the math skills to perform the calculations without electronic help? But Casey and co-author Lew Hackler make some good points about when to stop buying and installing new gear and dreaming about a bigger and better boat and get going.

By way of disclaimer I acknowledge that my thinking has been strongly influenced by H.D.T. if not Casey (One of my favorite authors BTW). It is my opinion that too much stuff just gets in the way of the basic enjoyment of life. How many people do you know that are slaves to their possessions and don’t even know it? It is a sad thing that so many people never fulfill their dream of cruising because they never quite have enough stuff or a big enough boat to hold it all.

So let us discuss on this thread the minimum requirements for successful cruising, short term and long term. I am not talking about sailing around the world in a peapod. Physical comfort and adequate supplies are, in my opinion, among the necessities, but I can state categorically that the right 26 or 27 footer is perfectly adequate, and in some cases ideal, for a couple to live and cruise in long-term. Also, let's not limit the discussion to gear, things you can buy. Consider skills, mindset, attitudes and other intangibles.

What would you consider the minimum requirements and where is the tipping point between sufficient and too much.

Malie ke kai
 
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#110 ·
I never thought of or considered lights as minimum electronics but basic systems.
 
#112 ·
I think my boat gives me a warped perception sometimes. You're right; it is a basic system. I may have one of the smallest cruisers made, but it was still a big part of their advertising that you could use it for overnights. Yet it came from the factory with no lights. I know the regulations say that for boats under 7 meters you can just carry a flashlight and turn it on as needed, but that is only if you are under sail. If I turn on the motor, I have to have lights and it did come from the factory with a motor mount. Even then, I still have the option of just using a single white light if I keep my speed under 7 kts.

Lights of one kind or another are on the short list (I posted on that earlier).
 
#111 ·
A friend sailed his 28 foot Bristol Channel Cutter to Micronesia. How did it go I asked. He said the little boat sailed like a witch and he never felt threatened in rough weather. Then he pauses and I heard the approach of a but..." But," he said, "the boat was too small...to small to carry enough fuel, water and provisions. It seemed like we had to return to port every few days to stock up again."
 
#114 ·
Essential safety electronics for cruising??

Have come late to this informative thread and have a question about what others may see as essential, optional or unnecessary for offshore cruising - particularly what are some views on installing an AIS transponder.

I am currently preparing my boat, a Van De Stadt Helena 38, for extended cruising. I agree with all that has been said about simple and minimal systems but am at the point of deciding on installing both radar and a Comar AIS transponder (strongly advocated by my wife and sailing partner who has fears of ships at night :eek: ).
 
#115 ·
Have come late to this informative thread and have a question about what others may see as essential, optional or unnecessary for offshore cruising - particularly what are some views on installing an AIS transponder.

I am currently preparing my boat, a Van De Stadt Helena 38, for extended cruising. I agree with all that has been said about simple and minimal systems but am at the point of deciding on installing both radar and a Comar AIS transponder (strongly advocated by my wife and sailing partner who has fears of ships at night :eek: ).
What do these AIS transponders cost ?

I'm afraid I think radar on a small craft is a waste of money unless you happen to live/cruise in a particularly foggy area.

Only problem I see with things like the AIS gear is that you need to be running a chart plotter, be that stand alone or computer. Are you really going to run that thing 24 hours a day ? If not then the security is a tad illusory.

We rely more on paper charts than the plotter when out and about. Indeed I use my small hand held gps more than the other. Maybe I would use plotter more if it was computer based but even then would I ? That's an awful lot of power drain.
 
#116 ·
Ais

AIS transponder costs around $1400 (Aust), which imo makes it a better proposition than just installing a receiver. Will also have to install another VHF antennna. I think peace of mind comes in knowing that the big ships can see you as much as knowing what commercial shipping is around - we know they don't always see or even look on radar. Also an advantage in knowing the call sign of that ship heading your way from the horizon.

A display in the cockpit runs at around 3 amps or less I believe, while a laptop may draw twice that much. The AIS unit itself draws very little power. I will use the laptop for passage planning and as a chartplotter backup only. :)
 
#118 ·
Ais

If traveling shipping channels then an AIS receiver is nice to have. Knowing where those big boys are can put your mind at ease. The transponders are another issue. As a VTC friend of mine says "they are intended for commercial shipping. If every little boat with the bucks to burn goes out and buys one VTC will not be able to read their screens." My feeling is as long as I know where they are I will take the steps to avoid them - they are generally not able to maneuver around me anyways.

John N.
 
#119 ·
I think it is important to stress that sensible is in the eye's of the beholder. We all have different ideas of sensible based on our perception of what makes us comfortable. Don't change your perception of what you consider comfortable to conform to other peoples opinions of what is "sensible" to have on your boat. You can always expect someone to criticize but what the heck as long as you are comfortable and have what you want (not just what you may need) at anchor or in a marina you are good to go.

I have redundent GPS/chartplotter systems, several VHFs, Radar, laptop with PDA backup, air conditioning, refrigeration/icemaker, generator, invertors, dinghy, inflatable, outboard, bow thruster, the kitchen sink, and a huge pilothouse with side deck and back deck doors. When I go places I am comfortable and if something fails (except that trusty perkins, knock on wood) I can continue my trip while a new part meets me at a future port of call. I can sail or motor and regardless the weatherand and I am comfortable.

I would suggest that the primary guide to use in outfitting for cruising is your perception of what "you" need to be/feel comfortable because being sensible (having, using, or showing good sense or sound judgment) implies that you would not undertake a lifestyle where you were not comfortable right. Take ideas from forum posts but let your comfort level temper the ideas to your level of "sensible".
 
#120 · (Edited)
Henry David Thoreau made an argument about using a box as a place to live. I guess this was before modern nylon backpacking tents. Having spent some time backpacking I must say that almost any boat is better than a backpacking tent. But after 4-5 days out in the woods carrying my house on my back I was ready for some creature comforts!!!!! I love HDT and his ideals have influenced my life. But how minimal can you go???? My Pearson 323 is about as small as I want for a week or two. I guess that my wife and I will go cruising next year and use the P323 at first. If we love the cruising lifestyle we will probably buy a larger boat. But if we are happy cruising in the P323 we will keep cruising in that boat. The main argument from sensible cruising IMHO was that you should go cruising not waste your life planning to go cruising. I know that I am chicken **** and going cruising is scarey. Sitting around for years planning to go criusing is much less scarey!!!! Loading up the boat and going is difficult and I will probably use any excuse to procrastinate actually casting off the lines that hold me firmly attached to life on shore.
 
#121 ·
The main argument from sensible cruising IMHO was that you should go cruising not waste your life planning to go cruising. I know that I am chicken **** and going cruising is scarey. Sitting around for years planning to go criusing is much less scarey!!!! Loading up the boat and going is difficult and I will probably use any excuse to procrastinate actually casting off the lines that hold me firmly attached to life on shore.
And ain't that the troof.

Well said.

(There is a mea culpa attached.)
 
#124 · (Edited)
If traveling shipping channels then an AIS receiver is nice to have. Knowing where those big boys are can put your mind at ease. The transponders are another issue. As a VTC friend of mine says "they are intended for commercial shipping. If every little boat with the bucks to burn goes out and buys one VTC will not be able to read their screens." My feeling is as long as I know where they are I will take the steps to avoid them - they are generally not able to maneuver around me anyways.
True, but when you're off shore on the night watch, having an AIS transponder is probably pretty good insurance. I understand from another thread that they haven't been approved yet for small craft in the US, but can be purchased from other countries.

Latitude 38 - The West's Premier Sailing & Marine Magazine
 
#125 ·
erps said:
I understand from another thread that they haven't been approved yet for small craft in the US, but can be purchased from other countries.
Yes, but if you intend to buy it elsewhere and then bring it into the U.S. beware that you may have a problem. I've been searching, but cannot find the story I read sometime back. Maybe it is a figment of my imagination, but I am sure that I read that someone who attempted to do that had his class B AIS transceiver confiscated by customs when he tried to bring it into the U.S. on a U.S. registered boat.
 
#126 ·
That's odd. When we arrived off Cape Flattery last summer and checked it with Tofino Traffic they asked us to turn on our AIS. We didn't have one but I've been considering getting a receiver to keep track of commercial vessels in low visibility situations as we don't have radar. (Waiting for radar to get small enough to be practical on my 27 footer)
 
#127 ·
I traded in my basic Pearson 30 for an Islander Freeport 41 with generator, A/C, etc. Neither one is perfect for two. In the Pearson, we had to clean up dinner and put away the table before going to bed. In the morning the same thing the other way round to have breakfast. The bunk in the cabin is just a bit too small for two people. Storage in almost non existent. We ended up with a bunch of blue plastic totes in the quarter berth. It's no fun to pull out everything to get something out of the box in the back and then put it all back when you're done. If you're into camping that's fine but, for any length of time, not for us. Having to turn sideways to pass each other in the cabin gets old in a hurry. In fairness, the Pearson is more a weekender or big day sailer and there are other, smaller boats that are better thought out for cruising.

The Islander, on the other hand, is probably a bit too big. I can handle her myself, no problem, and the comfort is really nice but the PO wasn't real big on maintenance and I spend WAY too much time keeping things running. Almost every pump needed repair or replacement. Half the stuff didn't work. When something stopped, the PO just stopped using it. In fairness, on a 30 year old boat, stuff happens but in this case maintenance was definitely deferred too long. Little by little, I'm getting things into shape and, I think, once I get everything shipshape things should calm down but I still think she's a bit too big for two. Don't forget that the cost of everything goes up by the cube of the length...dockage, hauling, everything.

For our lifestyle the best boat I have seen is the Islander Freeport 36 with the stateroom layout. Lots of room, a nice big bunk, comfortable cockpit, plenty of storage packaged in a hull that is a decent sailer. There are others with a similar layout. Unless you plan to make trans Pacific voyages where you need a snug sea berth for the times you're crashing through waves as big as an apartment building not the right boat, but I think most of us who cruise spend a lot more time hopping from port to port and at anchor that in long offshore passages. What's right for you depends on your style, but I think waiting for "the perfect boat" is foolish. My Pearson "wasn't the right boat" but it was a boat and we put on lots of miles together. I sailed her for over 20 years before I traded up. I would paraphrase the cruising wisdom. Go as small as you can tolerate, go as simple as you can deal with, go as soon as possible. An extra year of cruising in misery is no joy.

Dick Pluta
 
#128 ·
minimalism

hi, thanks for the post, exactly what i was looking for-almost. While I applaud the posts on "concept", I require more details. Sure you can cruise on a 20 footer or a 60+ footer but what exactly do you require relating to amenities/systems. I am currently rebuilding a Morgan 33 outisland and am looking for advice pertainning to minimal systems required. I have to build floor and bulkheads and all systems including propulsion. I got the boat for free and it is big and wide so i think i will name her "free willy". I am specifically looking for a reduced maintainance situation. So, are candles ok for lighting, kerosene, is hatch hood ok for ventilation (plan on sailing the tropics), is alcohol stove ok for cooking, don't know bout the head, which is mostly foolproof. How much water and fuel storage is needed or desired? What about water maker, ice maker, solar panels, battery size, etc, etc? I had the best time when camping primitive, solar shower, coleman lantern and cook stove, etc. Thanks for any input. This topic is exactly what i came here looking for. Patrick
 
#130 ·
It all depends upon the person. Do you require ice and cold beer??? If so refrigeration is a must have. Do you watch a lot of television??? Are you afraid of fog and need a radar unit. Do you get hot and desire air conditioning??? We need to work on our boat a Pearson 323 which is probably too small for a couple. My first concern is a seaworthy boat. We have refrigeration that we don't use but it can be improved and used. I figure that I need two more batteries and have bought a solar panel to power the frig. I have rarely encountered fog so rada is a low priority. A new inflatable is on the wish list but we have decided that for us a life raft is probably not worth the expense. We will be mostly coastal and the inflatable should be all we need. A new bladder type water tank so that we can carry more water!!!! We can only carry 35 gallons now which is ok but if we go to the Bahamas an extra 30 gallons or more would be nice. Maybe 6 X 5 gallon containers that can be easily transported in a dinghy??? We would like to be able to carry scuba gear but there just is not room. In a larger boat I would also want a scuba tank compressor. We have a alcohol stove that works but is not ideal. Propane would be nice but is not in our plans right now. The list can be endless. That is what I love about ""Sensible Sailing"" the advice to go cruising now. Leaving the dock is so scarey. It is so much less scarey to work on the boat. I met a guy who was building an airplane. He was not a pilot!!!!! Flying a small airplane makes sailing seem absolutely safe. Sitting in his garage building an airplane was even safer than sailing!!!!! Me when I wanted to fly I rented a airplane and went flying. Absolutely no desire to spend years building an airplane. Though I must admit that I met another guy who had built a Long EZ which is an amazing airplane. Of course he was a pilot who was flying while he was working on his airplane at night and on weekends. He took me flying and I was amazed at how cool the long EZ is to fly. Not particularly comfortable but very fast. But back to my point. Ask yourself if you want to go sailing and when. We are planning to go cruising next year but have been sailing every chance we get for the last 18 years.... Our boat is very far from perfect and is usually dirty but we would rather go sailing.
 
#132 ·
Well... Land Ho...Welcome back Sailorman...I have asked several times about you over at SBO with not much luck...Hows the Boat Hows the Boys? Still have the use of the free dock? Did you install the Lazyboy and couch yet...:p Find an engine yet? Still Nursing?

Glad to see you havent given up

There is a good lot over here.

Again Welcome back Patrick

Post some updated pictures of her
 
#133 · (Edited)
Thoreau is awesome, and I've found this book very helpful in separating the necessary skills and equipment, from the pointless obstacles/expenses. My $800 Catalina 22 is extremely comfortable for coastal cruising with two people. Anything bigger would just mean more time working on/paying for the boat- and less sailing.

Here's what I've found to be worthwhile equipment for ~1 week cruising:

Dining:
small propane BBQ
small cooler with carrying handle (keeps ice for 1 week)
fishing and snorkeling gear for obtaining free seafood
high quality plastic silverware/plates
high quality coffee (NOT folgers), ground just before trip, and placed in empty tea bags for brewing

Plumbing:
stainless steel bowl for a sink
porta-potty
solar shower (aka black plastic bag)

Navigation:
$50 GPS
free paper charts- (printed out on-line, and taped together)
handheld compass
pencil
ruler

Safety:
electric trolling motor w/ charger and batteries
PVC raft w/ oars
life vests
jacklines & harnesses
manual and electric bilge pumps
electric depth sounder
good anchor and chain, no windlass
handheld marine radio
flares
fire extinguisher
 
#134 ·
The Best Days

Sailing simply in a Catalina 22 reminded me of an encounter with such a boat by a multi million dollar yacht. Both were anchored. Towering above the 22 the owner of the mega yacht looked down at the skipper of the 22 and with a far off look in his eyes said...hey son, I use to own a boat that size and those were the best days of my life.
 
#135 ·
And when the sailor has got his boat, he may not be the richer but the poorer for it, and it be the boat that has got him.

I intend to purchase a boat which will surpass any on the marina in grandeur and luxury, as soon as it pleases me as much and will cost me no more than my present one.

Thoreau quotes edited for context :D

I'm 25 and my wife is 24- we just recently graduated from college. When I told people I was looking at buying a sailboat, they said I should wait until I'm older and I can buy a nice one. But for less money than a new laptop computer, we're cruising NOW with more than enough comfort and safety to spare.
 
#136 ·
I don't think there is a meaningful answer to the "minimum required" for cruising and I won't attempt to share my list. It may be best for the individual to determine their own minimums for risk/safety management, comfort management, and performance management. I scoff at some of the essentials listed above and I strongly agree with others. Many differences will result with the style of cruising too. We are "cockpit potatoes" that travel in the best of selected weather and we avoid commitments to arrival dates. Certainly, the cost of cruising and equipment is another variable. My advice as a liveaboard cruiser for four decades is to take care and joy, Aythya crew
 
#137 ·
How about if money isn't an issue?

This is really a very interesting topic for me... How about if money wasn't an issue? Most arguments I have seen here for the ideal cruising boat are based around the exponential increase in purchase and upkeep costs of the systems with each eack extra foot of LOA.

I have had the dream of cruising for most of my life, though, I never thought it would be possible for an average Joe like me. Just recently, out of the blue, my wife also started talking about this and we have decided we were going to make it happen. We have started seriously cutting down on our already modest "lifestyle" and were thinking 15 to 20 years from now we should have been able to save enough and have enough investments to buy something suitable and keep on cruising it until we no longer feel like it is fun. Now just recently, we have had some luck and it looks like the 15 to 20 years saving are not going to be necessary. We could probably set off in a year or two if it wasn't for a child with special needs who needs a stable life close to the services he requires.

In short, in around 10 years when we set off, if all goes well, we should be in a relatively good position and probably not overly concerned about the cost of the boat and it's upkeep (within reason). In a case like this what would be the ideal boat for long term cruising? Would you still stick to a smaller vessel with less systems but a nicer pedigree (Tayana, IPY etc...) or rather go for something larger with room for plenty of toys to make the trip fun, a washing machine and a happy wife?
 
#138 · (Edited)
This is really a very interesting topic for me... How about if money wasn't an issue?
Aye, there's the rub. Money is always an issue. Money may not determine the size and quality of the boat you set off in, as needs and mantenance skills play a big part here. A licensed diesel mechanic with a combined honours degree in naval architecture and electrical engineering who is 5'6" and single has different needs than a 6' tall family man who is all thumbs and has 5 kids. BUT money will detemine how long you can cruise without refilling the kitty. Which often gets back to skills and maintenance. if you can't fix what breaks, and things break often because you don't know how to fix them, you are going to see your underway repair budget balloon, which causes your passage budget to shrink.
Perhaps our boats also tend to reflect our self-image. For example i am drawn to boats that are short, wide, comfy capable, slow but loaded with character... in other words, unhansome.. :)
 
#147 ·
I have not done any long term cruising at this point, just weekend to multi-week trips, but I do plan too and so have been studying these types of issues for a long time. Now, I will not have the unlimited budget "problem", in fact we will need to fall into the extremely frugal cruisers crowd, so perhaps I bias my opinions to make myself feel better but here is one small thing I noticed...

I read a lot of blogs, books, magazine articles, etc of people, most very much better off then me financially who are cruising and one thing I often notice is how often they are waiting around because something broke, Things I do not even have on my boat. (This is just a huge generalization, and not meant to be negative in anyway toward anyone.)

I seem to read a lot of things like "So we are stuck in this port while we wait for X part to get shipped in, and then Y broke, and now we need to wait for three more weeks for the only repair guy to get to it and we really want to get going before the next storm blows in." And often times all the things that are breaking are things I will likely not be able to afford on my boat.

No matter how much money you have, even if you can pay someone to do everything, you still need to wait around for the parts and the people to be available to get the job done. I realize that a LOT of things will break on my old boat as well, but simply put, the fewer systems, the fewer things CAN break.

Of course few systems and smaller boats have huge negatives too. A lot less daily comfort, less room for things, no freezer, so not as fancy of food. I'm not knocking big boats or cool toys, but for me, a big part of the dream of cruising is to get away from the headaches of dealing with way more stuff then I need. Even if I could pay someone to fix it, I would still need to arrange it, wait for the guy to show up, make sure he does a god job, dealing with the effects if he doesn't, etc.

I agree for everyone there is a "sweet spot" to shoot for. I am still young(ish) and can give up a lot more comfort. As with all things in boats, it is a balancing act on a personal scale. But I think I see a lot of people being unhappy when it is not as easy to just throw money at a problem while cruising as it was back home.

Of course, I'll be rowing around to all the big boats looking to bum ice from their freezers, or asking if they got the weather report off their satellite system. :eek:
 
#150 ·
So, I've finally made it all the way through this forum and I must say, I think everyone is pretty much in agreement that there is no one size fits all category. There are obviously benefits and detractors for every decision.

My wife and I are two years away from "retiring" ( at the ripe old age of 31) and going on an open ended cruise. I've been watching boats and prices and I have decided that the majority of what we will end up with will be based on what is on the boat when we buy it. There are a few items that I plan on adding regardless of how the boat is equipped though. My Admiral has made it clear that she would value a water maker, which I plan on piecing together. I also want to have a SSB with a pactor modem for communication to make our lives easier and reduce the amount of worrying our families will do.

Of course there are some niceties on my short list, like a small GPS plotter (Garmin 441s) and the Standard Horizon GX2100 (my thought being that the AIS will replace the need for radar in terms of being run down by large ships at night or in the fog). But if the boat already has an equivalent in good working order, I would hesitate to rip it out.

We'll carry the typical redundant battery powered alternatives, but we've worked hard to save enough to make this dream financially achievable and I know that it will take some restraint on my part to not load up the boat and deplete our "cushion funds."

There are a lot of well equipped cruisers out there, whether the PO gave up on the dream, or is ready to switch boats. Our biggest concern is where to get the boat. Most of the boats that have some of the gear we want (good ground tackle, cruising sails, some of the above mentioned gadgets) are located on the coast, while we are in Chicago. We'll have to decide if want to try to equip something here ( I imagine it might be difficult to find someone with a lot of experience installing SSBs in the midwest) or if we want to move a boat here to move onto it ($$), or do we rent a truck and take what will fit and drive right to a marina in FL?
 
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