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Sensible Cruising

83K views 156 replies 54 participants last post by  SV Dayenu 
#1 · (Edited)
"...concerning the Chinese and Sandwich Islanders"

There is a book by Don Casey entitled “Sensible Cruising, the Thoreau Approach”. I had already owned my boat for several years and developed my own ideas about cruising by the time I first read it. I don’t agree entirely with everything Casey has to say; today, I would expand his minimum requirements to include things like a handheld GPS unit for example because two such units are less costly and far more accurate than a cheap sextant and the necessary tables, and let’s face it: How many people nowadays have the math skills to perform the calculations without electronic help? But Casey and co-author Lew Hackler make some good points about when to stop buying and installing new gear and dreaming about a bigger and better boat and get going.

By way of disclaimer I acknowledge that my thinking has been strongly influenced by H.D.T. if not Casey (One of my favorite authors BTW). It is my opinion that too much stuff just gets in the way of the basic enjoyment of life. How many people do you know that are slaves to their possessions and don’t even know it? It is a sad thing that so many people never fulfill their dream of cruising because they never quite have enough stuff or a big enough boat to hold it all.

So let us discuss on this thread the minimum requirements for successful cruising, short term and long term. I am not talking about sailing around the world in a peapod. Physical comfort and adequate supplies are, in my opinion, among the necessities, but I can state categorically that the right 26 or 27 footer is perfectly adequate, and in some cases ideal, for a couple to live and cruise in long-term. Also, let's not limit the discussion to gear, things you can buy. Consider skills, mindset, attitudes and other intangibles.

What would you consider the minimum requirements and where is the tipping point between sufficient and too much.

Malie ke kai
 
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#2 ·
While it's a subject that has been much debated previously methinks it's a topic that always attracts some interest.

I had a friend who cruised quite extensively in a 26'er and at the time he was positively obsessed with the idea that the perfect cruising boat was sub 30'. I crewed on that boat offshore for a short while and what became very apparent is that out at sea you really do need less than if you are e.g. marina hopping.

Nonethless I did find his boat and our PB which was 28' to be a bit tight on for space. I'd also note that my friend is now out there on a 60' ketch and the last I heard of him he was madly trying to find crew. I think he went from slightly less than sublime to the ridiculous. On the other LOA is not necessarily the best gauge of a boats size.

My point of reference is "can the two of us handle this" and in an emergency "can one of us do it" ? That of course ignores the financial situation and whether or not you can keep the systems going without too much outside assistance.
 
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#3 ·
Much of the decision on what is the minimum depends on the area to be cruised. I suggest that cruising in tropical areas in a 26 foot boat is not the same as cruising in Alaska in the same boat. In areas where most of your time can be spent on deck, a smaller boat may be more than adequate but if your cruising goals are more northern wilderness than tropical harbours, being able to get inside becomes pretty important.
Similarly, cruising in high lats lessens or eliminates the need for refrigeration.

Gaz
 
#4 ·
Whatever boat, skills or equipment

you have ..I think it is important to have an extra forestay...;)
 
#5 ·
Duration plays a big part I think. I could easily live frugally if I'm on a one year sabatical. We're shooting for an open ended cruise of very long duration. In order to make that work, I think we'll need more than the basics. A bit more comfort but more importantly a bit of space to stretch out in, gain a bit more privacy and more storage for toys, hobbies, books, DVD's or whatever 'stuff' makes the time pass. I'm looking forward to some good fishing. That takes a bit of gear plus a good sized dink/motor. Need a bigger boat for carrying that.
I'm not purely a 'sailor' but rather a boater who enjoys sailing as PART of the experience.
But that's just me, takes all kinds, eh?
 
#8 · (Edited)
Why did you choose Amsteel?

Regarding boat size, one of my problems is berth size. Being 6'6" I chose my boat because of its bunk lengths not boat size. I think that the fun on a sailboat is inversely proportional to size.
 
#10 ·
Amsteel or Dyneema is stronger than steel yet it is light and flexible as any other 1/4 inch rope. Easy to work with, and easy to stow. Far easier to replace a broken stay or shroud with amsteel than wire and stronger too. The drawbacks are less resistance to chafe and UV.

I had a friend in Honolulu who dreamed of cruising someday. He had the same problem with headroom. Got an old wooden thing that sailed like the Mayflower and was nearly as old. He eventually wound up selling it and moving to North Dakota:confused:
 
#9 ·
Chuck, I truly enjoyed your website and can't wait for more.

All, I agree with most of the statements above pertaining to where the boat will be used and having things to elevate the experience from existence to truly living. Still, I find that the less things and complications I have the happier I become.

My wife to be and I are divesting ourselves of virtually everything. We will store what few heirlooms we have with the plan to cruise as long as it is fun. At first it was a bit of a struggle to get rid of things but as the process continues we feel more and more unburdened.

I like the attitude of Lin and Larry Pardey, Don Casey, "H. D. T.", the crew of Lealea, and the crew of Atom: Go simple, go small, go now. This is how I wish to live and cruise. Remember, there comes a point in life where you no longer own things but things begin to own you.

Now I just have to convince my love that we don't need 38' with AC and refrigeration...
Michael
 
#11 ·
It has a lot more to do with mindset and expectations than anything else IMHO. There are people who are in cruising for the travel, the voyages between destinations and such... and then there are people who see a sailboat as an alternative to air travel and feel that there is no reason to do without all the conveniences of home: hot and cold running water, push to flush toilets, microwave ovens, HD large screen TVs, etc.

Personally, I choose to use my boat as a refuge from a lot of the materialism and conspicuous consumption of the rat race... and don't see a need to have a 40'+ beastie... especially when my boat can run most of those 40' beasties down without me even trying. :)

I have Sensible Cruising, and like the approach and mindset it has about cruising.... far better than what is the focus of most of the modern sailing press, where you have to have a $300,000 boat to safely cross oceans... BS... small boats have been crossing oceans for a long, long time. The main reason that the mainstream sailing press panders to the larger boats is that is where the advertising money is. It takes almost as much time to make a good <30' sailboat as it does to make a >35' sailboat, and the prices you can reasonably get people to pay for them are so much smaller, as are the profit margins. Some one might pay $100,000 for a 28-30' boat, brand new... but a 40' would be $250,000-300,000 of the same build quality.
 
#13 ·
We are currently equipping a boat for long-term (five years, we hope) cruising and we face these questions every day. Capacity isn't so much an issue as it's a steel full-keeler of some 40 feet on deck, 42 LOA. We are going for some complexity in the energy-self-sufficiency department because we'll have a child aboard, and I write for a living, necessitating some way to stay in touch offshore to run in a minor way my business and to transmit and receive educational materials for our kid.

We will also be renting out the house as two flats, and while I will assign to a manager the general landlording duties, I will have to approve expeditures, file house taxes, monitor utilities, etc.

Generally, we are moving into a fairly rarefied subset of cruisers: the anchoring-out, lone wolf types, and the equipment list is reflecting this.

Stuff we won't have: Air conditioning on the hook, a diesel genset, a fully electric windlass, a RIB, a 9.9 HP outboard, cockpit lockers, huge alternators, bow thrusters, electric winches, davits, two heads, dedicated nav displays, satphone.

Stuff we will have/already have: Espar heating for offshore, Mermaid A/C plus heat if we are on shore power; a Honda gas genset, a custom arch for comms, shade and 3 or 4 large solar panels; 4 x 8D AGMs; wind generator that can be towed, like a Duo-Gen; two tenders (Portabote and nesting dinghy) stowed on deck; small workshop forward; 2000 W inverter/charger; foot pumps for water; only one head; PC-based nav display; extensive fuel filtering, a separate polish tank; new water tanks; manual-optional windlass; four anchors; multiple rodes; feathering prop, large inventory of spares.

The idea is to stay independent of the shore when desirable in order to reduce costs. I don't object to tying up in a marina now and then, but it runs counter to our ideals of self-sufficient cruising. I would rather get more months of zero-sum cruising (the house rental will pay down the mortgage, the utilities and probably my diesel bills, and I can afford $25K/year for our trip, which is plenty if I'm not eating ashore every night) than to have a gold-plated trip. We may haul out for a season in New Zealand to put our boy in school and do maintenance halfway through our trip.

Beth Leonard's "Voyager's Handbook" is very good at laying out the different styles of cruising: the totally budget "do it now with what you've got" idea all the way to the high-life style found in the Caribbean. Our boat, and our plans, are more "Ocean Navigator" oriented, because we intend to go off the beaten track a little farther...we haven't ruled out high-latitude sailing as the boat is built for it.

Anyway, that's where we are now: making complex adjustments in order to have a simple life aboard.
 
#15 ·
We are currently equipping a boat for long-term (five years, we hope) cruising and we face these questions every day. Capacity isn't so much an issue as it's a steel full-keeler of some 40 feet on deck, 42 LOA. We are going for some complexity in the energy-self-sufficiency department because we'll have a child aboard, and I write for a living, necessitating some way to stay in touch offshore to run in a minor way my business and to transmit and receive educational materials for our kid.

We will also be renting out the house as two flats, and while I will assign to a manager the general landlording duties, I will have to approve expeditures, file house taxes, monitor utilities, etc.

Generally, we are moving into a fairly rarefied subset of cruisers: the anchoring-out, lone wolf types, and the equipment list is reflecting this.

Stuff we won't have: Air conditioning on the hook, a diesel genset, a fully electric windlass, a RIB, a 9.9 HP outboard, cockpit lockers, huge alternators, bow thrusters, electric winches, davits, two heads, dedicated nav displays, satphone.

Stuff we will have/already have: Espar heating for offshore, Mermaid A/C plus heat if we are on shore power; a Honda gas genset, a custom arch for comms, shade and 3 or 4 large solar panels; 4 x 8D AGMs; wind generator that can be towed, like a Duo-Gen; two tenders (Portabote and nesting dinghy) stowed on deck; small workshop forward; 2000 W inverter/charger; foot pumps for water; only one head; PC-based nav display; extensive fuel filtering, a separate polish tank; new water tanks; manual-optional windlass; four anchors; multiple rodes; feathering prop, large inventory of spares.

The idea is to stay independent of the shore when desirable in order to reduce costs. I don't object to tying up in a marina now and then, but it runs counter to our ideals of self-sufficient cruising. I would rather get more months of zero-sum cruising (the house rental will pay down the mortgage, the utilities and probably my diesel bills, and I can afford $25K/year for our trip, which is plenty if I'm not eating ashore every night) than to have a gold-plated trip. We may haul out for a season in New Zealand to put our boy in school and do maintenance halfway through our trip.

Beth Leonard's "Voyager's Handbook" is very good at laying out the different styles of cruising: the totally budget "do it now with what you've got" idea all the way to the high-life style found in the Caribbean. Our boat, and our plans, are more "Ocean Navigator" oriented, because we intend to go off the beaten track a little farther...we haven't ruled out high-latitude sailing as the boat is built for it.

Anyway, that's where we are now: making complex adjustments in order to have a simple life aboard.
The advantage of a forty footer is (a) more room for crew. (b) Longer on the waterline = faster = shorter passages. Guard against the temptation to drag along too much stuff. Given that you have offspring to bring along, it makes sense.
Heating: A bigger boat requires more complex and therefore more vulnerable to failure, systems. Bring lots of warm clothes. WE find that a single burner Origo alcohol heater does us just fine. WE use a 5200 BTU electric heater from West Marine while plugged in at the dock. Another advantage of a small boat.

Solar panels, wind generator: you'll need them at sea and on the hook. Gas gensets=Bad. annoy everybody.

Fuel system: Possibly unnecessary complications. (But I could be wrong)

PC Based navigation: Good for planning, otherwise - Bad. Prone to failure and may give false sense of security. be sure you have complete, up-to-date paper charts and plotting tools and know how to use them. Also have at least one hand held GPS with plenty of spare batteries. Disclosure: I have Garmin software and GPS interface on my PC but I NEVER use it for navigation while under way.

While I'm on a roll (Or rant as it were); Navigation necessities, In my opinion of course, are:

Good quality steering compass.

Another good quality steering compass.

Two or more hand held GPS units. These don't have to be fancy as long as they give you the basic data - lat, long, speed. We have one Garmin GPS76 and two GPS 38s. Total cost about $400. You MUST (In my opinion) have GPS unit(s) that operate independently of the ship's power supply and not too fancy lest yo be tempted to forego real charts.

Depth sounder. Even a lead line. A necessity when anchoring and very helpful when you are sailng where you shouldn't be

Current NOAA or Admiralty paper charts. Expensive but no prudent navigator would think of going to sea without them.

Plotting tools. I use a Jeppeson aviation style rotating plotter/protractor and a Field Artillery plotting square, a 18" steel ruler and a set of traditional brass dividers. #4 pencils don't smear like #2s do. These work for me because I'm used to them and know how to use them. (My life story can come later) I don't like parallel rulers or yachtman's plotters but you might find they suit you. Use what works for you but be damned sure you know how to use the tools that you choose.

Tide and current tables. Paper, not on your laptop. (Again, electronic is OK for planning but it is not a substitute for a book printed on paper)

Good quality binoculars. 7X50

Hand bearing compass.

A good stong hand held spotlight with it's own battery, not one that depends on the ships power.

Log. A device that tells you your speed through the water. Record speed, time and compass heading in your Logbook or deck log at regular intervals to determine your DR position.

Chronometer. Really a good wristwatch will do and I don't mean a Rolex. We each have a Rolex and neither of them keep good enough time for navigation. Any decent quartz watch will be superior. If it has a stopwatch function so much the better.

Logbook. To record our position fixes to facilitate dead (Or ded) reckoning.

Any additional information about your cruising grounds you can get. Charlie's Charts, Wagonners, Yachtsman's chart books, whatever.

Sextant. Eh... not so much. For the price of one cheap sextant you can buy two cheap GPS units that will be far more accurate than any position you can get with a sextant from the deck of a small boat, and by "Small boat" I mean anything under 200 feet on deck. (On Endeavour, 151 ft LOA, the best I could do was a cocked hat ten miles across. My GPS 76 typically gives a position within one boatlength of my Vega27) Bear in mind also that, on our recent Pacific crossing we did not see the sun, let alone moon or stars, for five weeks. Sextant's no good under those conditions Buckwheat. Then there are the tables and almanac you will need along with the sextant. Skip the sextant and buy three handheld GPS units and plenty of batteries with the money you save. Keep a log and fall back on DR in the unlikely event that all three of your GPS units fail.

OK, I admit I have a sextant, and HO 249 and almanac. Mostly I use the sextant turned sideways to take bearings for coastal navigation. Then check my position plot with the GPS.

Whoops! Looks like I got off on a tangent there. Sorry I just thought I had something to say and my fingers went off on their own. Not aimed at anyone in particular you understand. Well, not after I got started on navigation anyway. It's just that I have strong feelings about computer based navigation. All well and good until the batteries go flat or the salt spray gets into the works then it's a dark and stormy night and the laptop won't reboot and that's when the screaming starts. And it's "My mother warned me not to go to sea!", and "What do you MEAN you don't have a satelite phone?!?!?!?" and then it's "What'll we DOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!?!?!?!? and that's when the cat stars wailing and throwing up in your slippers.:eek:

Now, If it was me, I would calmly light up a cigar (Punch double corona, maduro, of course), fire up my number two or three GPS unit, verify my DR plot on my paper chart and authoritatively say "Bring in the Jenny and hoist the number 2 jib. Take another reef in the main and lay 'er on the starboard tack at 040."

But that's just me.

Malie ke kai
 
#14 ·
Michael, I'm glad you liked our website. Your wife can talk to my wife if it will help. We are quite comfortable on our boat, I can assure you. We just don't have a lot of room to roam around or store things we don't need. And did you know that, In Hawaii they say that you aren't really a cruiser if Lin and Larry Pardee haven't bummed a tow from you?:D

Sailingdog - very astute. Magazines are in business to make money and subscription fees generally only just barely pay the postage. Operating costs, salaries and profits all come from advertisers. The job of the magazine is to convince you to buy what the advertisers are selling. If you've never bought magazine advertising you may not realize that editorial support is often part of the package. In other words, if Acme boats buys a half page add in Crackerjack Sailor Magazine, chances are that there will also be a favorable article about the new Acme 44 Magnum Supercruiser in the same issue. Ad salesmen will often offer a cover photo and feature article as an inducement to an advertiser to buy a full page or inside cover ad for a number that starts with $ and ending in many zeros. In my former working life I had a good friend in the "Public Relations" department of a major corporation who was paid a lot of $$ to make sure her company's products got favorable treatment from the press.

Magazines, radio and TV of course, movies and even books are infiltrated with subtle and some not so subtle marketing messages to convince you that you need somebody's product. If that weren't enough, they also spend a ton of money on lobbyists to make sure you continue to have access to easy credit so that if you don't have the cash you can still buy the product.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not some anti-corporation hippie. I know who signed the paychecks and where the profits came from that enabled me to retire at 58 (From a job in sales and marketing) I also know that most companies provide products and services that genuinely benefit the public. I'm truly glad that there is a West Marine store down the street. I'm just sayin'.....

That Acme 44 Magnum at $XXX,000.99 won't take you any farther than a Pearson Triton or Albin Vega you can buy for $10,000 or less and will probably have blisters in two years, which the Triton or Vega will not.

Malie ke kai
 
#16 ·
We'll call her Womboat 1, even though I'd had a couple of other boats before her but she was the first, let's say serious cruising boat in my life. She was a 28' glass sloop basically a copy of a Herreschoff (sp ?) H28. Inexpensive but sound, simple systems, easily handled and maintenance was relatively simple and not a killer financially. The longest periods I spent on her continuously were measured in weeks not months or years and for me their were some insurmountable problems principally in the areas of stowage space and tankage. If all I had wanted her for was to cruise the waters of tropical Oceania she would have been fine for a young bloke by himself but as I yearned to travel to colder climates where one spends more time down below than up top she was simply to tight, particularly when it became two of us. I had to sell her eventualy, mainly because of work commitments and was a non owner for a few years.

Womboat 2, (Silver Raven), the current hole in the water, is a 34' steel sloop. She was bought as a toe back in the water which thankfully has worked out rather well. Stowage space in still a tad limited but the tankage issue is overcome. Systems still pretty simple, more expensive to maintain but certainly not outrageous. Again we've been using her for weeks at a time and in general are quite comfortable but I'm not as young as I once was and find some issues such as getting in and out of a V-berth, when someone else is asleep in same, to be mildly irksome. Again these are problems that are more of a nuisance in cold weather than hot.

Val has summed it up quite well when he speaks of being part of the 'go it alone, anchor out brigade' a club of which we are also aspiring members. While I love being able to pull into waterfront settlements for the odd night of eating out and drinking at the local we want to be able to spend a lot of time out of reach of civilisation, as far as that is possible in this overcrowed world. I do make the point that for us being away from the madding crowds is as much, if not more about 'vanting to be alone' as it to reduce costs.

So we are now looking for Womboat 3 and here I think we need to be damn careful. Our sights are set on 40' and we are very much trying to keep that as a maximum size knowing just how expensive the gear becomes for every extra foot. In fact, not just the cost of the gear but also the handling thereof noting as well that the bigger the boat the more difficult she is to berth, or indeed to find a berth. (by that I mean temporary berth in ports away from home.) I dare say that W3s systems will also be fairly simple compared to what we have seen on new boats as we browse around the odd boatshow. On the other hand she will have a galley that will suffice, an in port bunk that I can get in and out of without the Houdini contortions and a head that is roomy enough for hot showers on a cold day.

Yes I know that for some this is more than is required and for others is still not enough but it does seem to be a good fit for us. What she will cost is still unknown but it will be most certainly a damn sight less than it is possible to spend. I also know that we could find something a bit cheaper than we will probably end up spending and that the cheaper boat would do the job but we have a budget amount set aside that leaves us adequate funds for living expenses and maintenance.

Both of us are big readers and books take up a lot of space, we both like cooking so wish for better galley and pantry so that we can keep enough stores on board to last far longer away than Raven is capable of. If we find ourselves holed up somewhere cold and wet a generous degree of self sufficiency is going to be important.

So that's it. I'm not one to go knocking others whose concepts are different to mine. The folk who bought W1 cruised her far more extensively than I did and where more than happy with her although they have since moved on to something bigger. They made some changes to her living arrangements that suited them and gave them more stowage space than I had on her but in so doing they created a cabin that I would feel hopelessy cramped in. On Raven we have essentially reduced a double quarter cabin into stowage space and a single berth. That takes away the potential for stay aboard guests but that is an extremely low priority for us so no problem. Other people would find 40' too small though I don't neccessarily agree with their conclusions.

ps - I like the thing about the Pardey's bumming tows. So much for engineless cruising .
 
#23 ·
So we are now looking for Womboat 3 and here I think we need to be damn careful. Our sights are set on 40' and we are very much trying to keep that as a maximum size knowing just how expensive the gear becomes for every extra foot. In fact, not just the cost of the gear but also the handling thereof noting as well that the bigger the boat the more difficult she is to berth, or indeed to find a berth. (by that I mean temporary berth in ports away from home.)
That was a concern for us, as well. Frankly, I could afford a bigger boat and was lusting in particular after a Kanter Atlantic 45...very much my kind of proposition. But my wife is a wiry five-footer, and while young and game and pretty strong for her size, simple physics means I have a pretty good idea of what she can and can't overcome in the boat handling department (luckily, she's fearless about jumping off with a spring line in her teeth!). She can manage sails on our 40 footer in 25 knots entirely alone, which means for the duration of her watch. It is unreasonable to expect that I can be "on call" weeks at a time on passage, so it was her physical limitations that determined that maximum boat size we could handle, as neither of us wanted to get into electric winches, etc.

Of course a 40 foot full keeler has a LOT of stowage, tankage and general hidey-holes, so that's not an issue, and the pilothouse gives a vast amount of privacy for the aft cabin plus great engine bay access. We've lost some excitement in the sailing realm, yes, but have stability and durability on the upside...you just keep on plodding on at five knots in all but extreme conditions, because the boat drives itself, largely. Also, if the hydraulics fail, I can steer via tiller, but 40 feet is as big as I'd want to do that trick.

The price factor comes in later, but I do admit that ground tackle is massive enough at the 40 foot level (particularly if you size it up one class) to discourage wanting to go larger. More space means more crap aboard and sometimes it's best just to let the boat's dimension dictate what truly needs to go sailing with you and what can be left ashore.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I believe you hinted at an interesting view on this topic in the original post: you had already owned your boat for several years and made up your mind about many things.

Sometimes I think it's a mistake for "new" sailors to spend much time online reading about "my new 44 footer" and "I'm so glad we're not smashed in the 28 footer any more." If you took this at face value, it would seem like no one would cruise anywhere on a smaller boat.

It's obvious that only a percentage of cruisers are going to stay with a smaller boat for all of their sailing lives, but that doesn't mean that starting with a smaller boat isn't a bad idea. The best way to find out is to have a cool Vega 27 for a couple of years, and find out.

We were perfectly happy chartering an Islander 28 with two kids aboard, and I think we could have cruised for a month in Puget Sound on her. We did similar trips on our C&C 27, and that affected the "size discussion" of our next boat purchase (a 34 foot) for our growing kids.

Anyway, I think too many of us "over research" boats and should simply buy small to begin (something we can easily afford) with the idea of letting go of it in a year or two if it's not a right fit. The idea of "getting the lifetime boat," especially at the start, is pretty misleading.

Sensible Cruising is a great book, even if it could use an update. (Disclaimer-- I have been pushing my brother to find an Albin Vega for his next boat.) :)
 
#18 · (Edited)
My take..

Fortunately, for my own sanity, I don't worship one author or another and read them all. After over 34+ years on the water I've been lucky enough to find what works for me and I think this is the most important. I've done it both ways, old school and new, and everywhere in between..

From ages 6 through 12 I sailed extensively with my parents and grandparents to places far and wide. Most of this time was spend in old boats with either no or very little electrical systems and usually no propulsion.

We navigated the old fashioned way and used old brass oil lamps as running lights. The decks always leaked and the boat always smelled musty despite exquisite care as they were wood canvas. I grew to both enjoy this simplicity and to hate it.

Fast forward: From ages 12 to 24 I sailed on literally 60-70 different sail boats on deliveries and working as crew and also many different power boats also as either first mate or crew. Many were "fancy" for their day but not by todays standards.

For some strange reason I am always the default mechanical or person folks turn to when systems or equipment fail so I have a fair amount of experience in this department as well.

What I've learned:

I like pressure water but I back it up with foot pumps.

I like GPS/Plotters but always carry two spares and back these up with real charts, compass and DR and off shore a sextant.

I like solar panels and simple battery systems with a battery monitor such as a link 10. I do not like gen sets of any kind including the small Honda's.

I like roller furling and prefer a main sail with a minimum of three reef points.

I like a decent amount of chain on my anchoring system and keep two complete rode sets, beyond my primary, on board.

I don't like electric windlasses. I've fixed far to many thus I now use a manual windlass when and if I ever need it.

I like to have a stereo on board and use an iPod to supply music to it. Properly installed car stereos have worked very well for me and I've never had one fail.

I use radar and prefer a mast mount for performance. Unfortunately I have a stern pole on this boat that I will be converting to a mast mount as soon as I get the chance.

Racing and cruising techniques do work well & blend together well.

I prefer a dry bilge. nuff said

I carry many spares. nuff said

I use a radar reflector.

I don't like metal winch handles and prefer the Titan plastic floating handles.

I don't like 5200 or Silicone and use them very, very carefully.

I don't like exterior teak and I'm far to anal to let it go gray..

I like Tef-Gel, Lanocote, McLube, Boeshield & P.B. Blaster & feel WD-40 is the most overrated product ever produced.

I have davits and like them but NOT in rough weather! They are not however a necessity for me just a luxury.

I like tinned marine grade wire and adhesive lined heat shrink and use it.

I like fuses.

I don't like fancy alternator/regulator systems (had two fail) and prefer a standard large alternator of the maximum size for my belt.

I carry a spare regulator.

I prefer proper sea cocks and AWAB or better hose clamps doubled up.

I like depth sounders but have no use for a speed log.

I like my wind instrument but can do without.

I like my macerator but if going cruising it would be converted to a hand operated pump for reliability.

I like three blade props (reliable) and will never buy a fancy mechanical prop again...

I like ventilation and opening ports.

I like ST winches and rope clutches but would not go out of my way to convert.

I like Gore Stuffing Box Packing & PSS shaft seals.

I don't like computers for navigation and use one for my photography only. Been there tried it went back to a plotter.

I like helm mounted data.

I like nav-pods to keep my instruments dry.

I like a forward facing nav station.

I like at least one proper sea berth.

I like properly placed hand holds below decks.

I like cockpit cushions but they are not a necessity

I like dodgers (won't sail without one) & bimini's (don't want cancer) but they come off in really bad, green water, weather.

I like to eat so a stove/oven is a necessity

I like to BBQ but have yet to find a good one so we currently don't use one. Could care less really.

I like coffee. Been using Folgers...:(

I like having a real mattress pad and sheets & custom made a set from a king to fit our berth.

I enjoy hot water but it's not a necessity for me.

I HATE showering in the head (mold) and instead have a cockpit mounted wand..

I like redundant bilge pumps, two electric with one spare and one Whale manual type.

I prefer a keel stepped mast.

I like the safety & stability of inflatable dinghy's and a small 2 stroke. I don't like four strokes (been there done that sold it).

I have an epirb.

I like a good fixed mount VHF but also carry two spare hand held units that accept standard batteries.

I carry a ditch bag and a pelican case with spare GPS, VHF, Strobes and a large supply of Lithium AA batteries to power everything in the case in event we need them.

I use a manual flush toilet but carry spares.

I carry extra swage-less fittings and lots of rigging spares.

I carry spare hoses, clamps, electrical, nuts bolts screws, fuses, breakers, o-rings, sail repair supplies on and on and on...

So my preferred luxuries are really pressure water, GPS, Radar and a Stereo (so frivolous I know)..

Please keep in mind the above description is what works for ME and what I've learned personally from my own experiences. This may not suit YOU and I would not expect it to!

Unfortunately, I find the levels of hero worshiping on this and other forums kind of disconcerting and alarming.?

Some worship the likes of Lin and Larry or Casey or the Leonard's but I truly feel that this is a personal issue and one should ONLY be GUIDED by books they read not brainwashed or indoctrinated.

I'm in NO WAY pointing fingers at ANYONE in this particular thread at all and I include many forums from CS-BB, Cruisers Forums, SBO, SSCA, et.al when I talk about hero worshiping not just Sailnet. Sadly, many of these authors, and I've read them all, speak for what works for THEM and some portray this as the ONLY way things should be done.

If you've been around boat a while then you know there are literally 100's of ways to skin the same cat and meet the same end result. People do it differently every single day..!!

My suggestion is read as much as you can, but don't worship, and be sure to know what works for YOU not some author. When I say author that includes MY list of what works for ME above. If you find something in my list or an authors book useful to YOU then adopt it but don't do as some do and blindly accept a printed authors word for it just because it was in a "book"...

To be perfectly honest I have learned more on sailing forums and found far better answers to questions than I have in my very large library of marine related books.
 
#24 ·
To be perfectly honest I have learned more on sailing forums and found far better answers to questions than I have in my very large library of marine related books.
Same here, and aside from having a VariProp and a Honda 2000 on order, we are largely in complete agreement. (You'd like our Lavac head!) I also have a couple of VHF handhelds, one in the "crash box" with the old GPS and flares and heaving line, etc., and I thought I was the only guy using those Swedish (?) hose clamps...;)

I like Casey, the Pardeys, Beth Leonard, etc., but they are just larger drops in the pool of knowledge. Generally, I find that if I can get five thought processes out of these type of books, they are worth the price of acquiring them (Jimmy Cornell's latest was interesting that way, because he's had three very different boats on circs., and yet has the same general mindset I've already started to develop). Logging in here, however, I generally learn at least one new thing each day...a better average!
 
#19 ·
I agree you have to find what works for you. But most especially, if you're spending any significant time on the boat. You have to enjoy the boat, not be a slave to it.
 
#20 ·
Halekai...great post. I absolutely agree with your statements at the end about "heroes" and finding your own way to cruise. Looking at your list, I find myself agreeing with 90% and disagreeing with 10% while I probably disagree with 50% of the Pardee's stuff or more! Just goes to show that you can be happy cruising in a lot of different ways. Listen to everyone and make up your own mind!
Same applies to navigation and passagemaking...listen to those who have done it and been there...but YOU are the captain of your own vessel and need to make the choices that are right for your boat, your skills and your crew.

Having said that...here are the items on your list that I have quibbles with.

off shore a sextant.
Multiple GPS's (4) with massive AA battery backups stored in Pelican cases and in the microwave (Faraday Cage) on passage are my choice. They work all the time, in any weather and with great accuracy. Sextants are fun...but they are buggy whips! (We've had this thread folks but feel free to start a new one!:rolleyes:)

I like solar panels and simple battery systems with a battery monitor such as a link 10. I do not like gen sets of any kind including the small Honda's.
I like solar...but would not be without wind if going passive as I've found I can get twice the output on average daily than from a pair of 80 watt ea. panels. As to generators...never had or felt I needed one till my present boat...clearly a luxury...but BOY are they nice to have!! Feel the Honda generators are a good choice for someone with charging needs for a short term cruise or weekend type needs to charge batteries and power stuff.

I like roller furling and prefer a main sail with a minimum of three reef points.
Ditto...but Boom Furling main if you can afford it is even better than 3 reef points!

I don't like electric windlasses. I've fixed far to many thus I now use a manual windlass when and if I ever need it.
I got one to make it easy and quick to raise the main from the cockpit. Can do it by hand if necessary. NO problems experienced (Andersen winch) and a nice if pricey convenience.

I prefer a dry bilge.
I prefer one too...but the last 2 boats I've owned by design cannot have a totally dry bilge...can't get to it. No big deal.

I don't like 5200 or Silicone and use them very, very carefully.
I don't see much need for 5200 either ...but I do use silicone a lot and like it for certain things.

I don't like exterior teak and I'm far to anal to let it go gray..
I like some teak ad how it makes a boat look and Cetol makes it pretty easy to keep up with it and keep it looking good. If I was anal enough to insist on Varnish....I would have no teak on deck! :D

I have davits and like them but NOT in rough weather! They are not however a necessity for me just a luxury.
I just don't like davits....an accident waiting to happen. Have had them on two boats and prefer to tow or store dink on deck.

I like ST winches and rope clutches but would not go out of my way to convert.
I WOULD go out of my way to convert!

I like Gore Stuffing Box Packing & PSS shaft seals.
I don't trust the PSS in distant anchorages. Give me something easily fixed every time.

I like a forward facing nav station.
I never use my nav station except for storage. Everything is at the helm except the SSB.

I like cockpit cushions but they are not a necessity
They ARE a necessity!! :eek:

I like dodgers (won't sail without one) & bimini's (don't want cancer) but they come off in really bad, green water, weather.
I like full cockpit enclosures. Great in cold and bad weather but subject to the same concerns as a bimini in REALLY bad weather.

Been using Folgers...
I thought you said you liked COFFEE?? :D

I HATE showering in the head (mold) and instead have a cockpit mounted wand..
I can't shower in the cockpit...I can't stand the ogling and suggestive remarks from all the females in the anchorage!! :D:D:D
 
#21 ·
Amen Cam!!

but...

off shore a sextant.
Multiple GPS's (4) with massive AA battery backups stored in Pelican cases and in the microwave (Faraday Cage) on passage are my choice. They work all the time, in any weather and with great accuracy. Sextants are fun...but they are buggy whips! (We've had this thread folks but feel free to start a new one!:rolleyes:)

Answer: That's exactly what I do, although I have only three not four, in fact my GPS's/ VHF's in the case are individually wrapped in foil too. I have not dusted off the sextant in a long, long time but would still bring it for extended off shore work!

I like solar panels and simple battery systems with a battery monitor such as a link 10. I do not like gen sets of any kind including the small Honda's.
I like solar...but would not be without wind if going passive as I've found I can get twice the output on average daily than from a pair of 80 watt ea. panels. As to generators...never had or felt I needed one till my present boat...clearly a luxury...but BOY are they nice to have!! Feel the Honda generators are a good choice for someone with charging needs for a short term cruise or weekend type needs to charge batteries and power stuff.

Answer:
Meant to say solar/wind


I like roller furling and prefer a main sail with a minimum of three reef points.
Ditto...but Boom Furling main if you can afford it is even better than 3 reef points!

Answer:
I agree


I don't like electric windlasses. I've fixed far to many thus I now use a manual windlass when and if I ever need it.
I got one to make it easy and quick to raise the main from the cockpit. Can do it by hand if necessary. NO problems experienced (Andersen winch) and a nice if pricey convenience.

Answer:
There seems to be a huge difference in the longevity factor of halyard and sheet winches when compared to anchor windlasses. Location is perhaps a big player in this factor?

I prefer a dry bilge.
I prefer one too...but the last 2 boats I've owned by design cannot have a totally dry bilge...can't get to it. No big deal.

Answer: Again, I prefer a dry bilge you don't mind one that's why it needs to be about you..

I don't like 5200 or Silicone and use them very, very carefully.
I don't see much need for 5200 either ...but I do use silicone a lot and like it for certain things.

Answer:
Agreed, I do use silicone more than 5200 but I am very careful how and where I use the silicone.


I don't like exterior teak and I'm far to anal to let it go gray..
I like some teak ad how it makes a boat look and Cetol makes it pretty easy to keep up with it and keep it looking good. If I was anal enough to insist on Varnish....I would have no teak on deck! :D

Answer:
If I had to have a boat with teak I'd go back to using Cetol again. I do believe boats can still look good with no teak. Again it's about YOU..


I have davits and like them but NOT in rough weather! They are not however a necessity for me just a luxury.
I just don't like davits....an accident waiting to happen. Have had them on two boats and prefer to tow or store dink on deck.
Answer: Properly rigged I've traveled thousands of miles with a dink on the davits in calm weather with ZERO issues. The key word's are "PROPERLY RIGGED" and 95% of the folks I see using davits use them incorrectly. I always store on deck in anything over 4 foot seas or 18+ knots..

I like ST winches and rope clutches but would not go out of my way to convert.
I WOULD go out of my way to convert!

Answer:
I currently have two non ST's under my dodger, for halyards, and it's not bugged me enough yet to replace them...


I like Gore Stuffing Box Packing & PSS shaft seals.
I don't trust the PSS in distant anchorages. Give me something easily fixed every time.
Answer: Again this is why you must make your decisions. I've now owned four or five boats with PSS's and not had one ounce of trouble. In fact I just replaced the bellows on my current boat and sent the old one back for inspection. At 6 years old and 2800 engine hours (three ditch trips) PSS said the bellows were as good as new! I've also had a traditional hose on a stuffing box fail so PSS's are not the only shaft seal to worry about..

I like a forward facing nav station.
I never use my nav station except for storage. Everything is at the helm except the SSB.
Answer: I like to eat & sit there and use my lap top at night and still be in the conversation with the rest of the cabin not with my back to them. My electronics are also at the helm.. Should have clarified..

I like cockpit cushions but they are not a necessity
They ARE a necessity!! :eek:

Answer: My wife says so too..

I like dodgers (won't sail without one) & bimini's (don't want cancer) but they come off in really bad, green water, weather.
I like full cockpit enclosures. Great in cold and bad weather but subject to the same concerns as a bimini in REALLY bad weather.

Answer: Yup we have a full cockpit enclosure too but it's not on my 100% necessary list..

Been using Folgers...
I thought you said you liked COFFEE?? :D

Answer: Folgers is NOT the final answer but we have not yet found the perfect cup of boat Joe and have tried everything...

I HATE showering in the head (mold) and instead have a cockpit mounted wand..
I can't shower in the cockpit...I can't stand the ogling and suggestive remarks from all the females in the anchorage!! :D

Answer: And that's why I like it???;):D:D:D
 
#22 ·
Solar panels, wind generator: you'll need them at sea and on the hook. Gas gensets=Bad. annoy everybody.

Understand that it's a quiet Honda model, and it's a tertiary charging source: if the alternator, the wind and the solar aren't working, it's available to save the contents of the fridge or to power a pump. I got it mainly to run power tools at anchor (running these off the inverter, while doable, is not desirable from an efficiency standpoint), and to throw a charge into the windlass battery forward. On a steel boat, the ability to run Dremels, hand grinders and other power tools is useful on deck (obviously calm, dry days), as is the ability to "bring one's own power" ashore to do work on the beach you'd rather not do aboard.

Fuel system: Possibly unnecessary complications. (But I could be wrong)

In this case, yes. My system gives me the ability to polish fuel while sailing, to provide a back-up fuel pump, and to change filters without stopping the engine. I will have two 50 gallon keel tanks plus a 40 gallon "polish/day tank": even if I take on dodgy fuel, I'm not necessarily stuck, as I can isolate and self-remedy the situation in remote places.

PC Based navigation: Good for planning, otherwise - Bad. Prone to failure and may give false sense of security. be sure you have complete, up-to-date paper charts and plotting tools and know how to use them. Also have at least one hand held GPS with plenty of spare batteries. Disclosure: I have Garmin software and GPS interface on my PC but I NEVER use it for navigation while under way.

Yes, in keeping with the belt-and-suspenders approach, I will carry current and annotated paper charts. Understand I also have a pilothouse, a dry, large area in which to do my nav work. I don't need an outdoor, daylight-defeating, weather-proof screen for nav at the helm...I can buy approximately six identical used laptops for the same price as a current 10" plotter screen. Better that I have black boxes and six 15" screens...plus handheld GPS, a sextant, and various other goodies.

While I'm on a roll (Or rant as it were); Navigation necessities, In my opinion of course, are:

Good quality steering compass.

Another good quality steering compass.

Ritchie Globemaster, KVH AC103 fluxgate and probably a Vector G2 "satellite compass" for the autopilot. A compass on the wristwatch (have to hold it five feet off the steel deck, but it works fine at my chin level or atop the aluminum pilothouse lid.)

Two or more hand held GPS units. These don't have to be fancy as long as they give you the basic data - lat, long, speed. We have one Garmin GPS76 and two GPS 38s. Total cost about $400. You MUST (In my opinion) have GPS unit(s) that operate independently of the ship's power supply and not too fancy lest yo be tempted to forego real charts.

Two old Magellans plus a surprisingly accurate Trimble from 1993 with just alphanumeric display. Plus the Raymarine 420 plotter still at the inside helm. I'll probably update the Magellans to something that eats AAs less voraciously.

Depth sounder. Even a lead line. A necessity when anchoring and very helpful when you are sailng where you shouldn't be

I have a rickety CRT sounder called a Marinetek that works nicely, but takes power and room. There are better options.

Current NOAA or Admiralty paper charts. Expensive but no prudent navigator would think of going to sea without them.

Nor will I.

Plotting tools. I use a Jeppeson aviation style rotating plotter/protractor and a Field Artillery plotting square, a 18" steel ruler and a set of traditional brass dividers. #4 pencils don't smear like #2s do. These work for me because I'm used to them and know how to use them. (My life story can come later) I don't like parallel rulers or yachtman's plotters but you might find they suit you. Use what works for you but be damned sure you know how to use the tools that you choose.

Both the wife and I have taken plenty of nav courses and I do mostly GPS-less coastal pilotage here in chartbooks, taking bearings, 60 D Street and such. I also known and keep up my celestial nav skills with a Freiberger and a Astra III B sextant.

Tide and current tables. Paper, not on your laptop. (Again, electronic is OK for planning but it is not a substitute for a book printed on paper)

This is a weak spot for me, as Lake Ontario has currents, but "seiche" is as close to tides as we get. I will need to experience tides around Nova Scotia next year, if, as planned, we do a shakedown cruise down East prior to heading to Panama.

Good quality binoculars. 7X50

WWII Carl Zeiss 10 X 50s, Tasco 7 x 50s, a cheap 4 x 30, Bushell birders' glasses and an old rangefinder I found in the club house garbage. I use the Zeisses and the birders' glasses the most, as the Zeisses can make out buoy numbers at a ridiculous distance, but the birders' glasses are good at taking in a large sweep of water.


Hand bearing compass.

Yep, a Davis pistol grip model plus the aforementioned Suunto watch bearing compass.


A good stong hand held spotlight with it's own battery, not one that depends on the ships power.

Yes, two Garrity 6V lanterns, plus a 3V halogen flashlight...in addition to the "auto spot light" off ship's power or off the emergency power pack/inverter I carry (a 700W model I got prior to the Honda generator).

Log. A device that tells you your speed through the water. Record speed, time and compass heading in your Logbook or deck log at regular intervals to determine your DR position.

The GPSes do this quite well, and we keep hourly logs from which we derive set and drift, etc. DR positions are customarily kept and then compared with bearings taken from the shore (when it's visible) or against GPS reports. I plan to add celestial-derived positioning into the mix in order to add another element this summer.

Chronometer. Really a good wristwatch will do and I don't mean a Rolex. We each have a Rolex and neither of them keep good enough time for navigation. Any decent quartz watch will be superior. If it has a stopwatch function so much the better.

I do, and it does. Plus a recording barometer, probably the function I use the most. I adjust it to UTC via the national observatory, and/or an Internet site with atomic clock numbers. The variance over six months is at most, one second, which probably has to do more with my reaction time during the initial setting than the watch wandering.

Logbook. To record our position fixes to facilitate dead (Or ded) reckoning.

I keep a dual log of positional and maintenance information. I only know a few people on Lake Ontario who even keep a log at all, but it's how I determine oil change intervals, weather states, total sailing days, etc.

Any additional information about your cruising grounds you can get. Charlie's Charts, Wagonners, Yachtsman's chart books, whatever.

Yep! I've got to read something in the head.


Sextant. Eh... not so much. For the price of one cheap sextant you can buy two cheap GPS units that will be far more accurate than any position you can get with a sextant from the deck of a small boat, and by "Small boat" I mean anything under 200 feet on deck. (On Endeavour, 151 ft LOA, the best I could do was a cocked hat ten miles across. My GPS 76 typically gives a position within one boatlength of my Vega27) Bear in mind also that, on our recent Pacific crossing we did not see the sun, let alone moon or stars, for five weeks. Sextant's no good under those conditions Buckwheat. Then there are the tables and almanac you will need along with the sextant. Skip the sextant and buy three handheld GPS units and plenty of batteries with the money you save. Keep a log and fall back on DR in the unlikely event that all three of your GPS units fail.

OK, I admit I have a sextant, and HO 249 and almanac. Mostly I use the sextant turned sideways to take bearings for coastal navigation. Then check my position plot with the GPS.

Whoops! Looks like I got off on a tangent there. Sorry I just thought I had something to say and my fingers went off on their own. Not aimed at anyone in particular you understand. Well, not after I got started on navigation anyway. It's just that I have strong feelings about computer based navigation. All well and good until the batteries go flat or the salt spray gets into the works then it's a dark and stormy night and the laptop won't reboot and that's when the screaming starts. And it's "My mother warned me not to go to sea!", and "What do you MEAN you don't have a satelite phone?!?!?!?" and then it's "What'll we DOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!?!?!?!? and that's when the cat stars wailing and throwing up in your slippers.:eek:

Now, If it was me, I would calmly light up a cigar (Punch double corona, maduro, of course), fire up my number two or three GPS unit, verify my DR plot on my paper chart and authoritatively say "Bring in the Jenny and hoist the number 2 jib. Take another reef in the main and lay 'er on the starboard tack at 040."

But that's just me.

Heh. Well, the sextant comes out sideways for that coastal pilotage I mentioned, and for getting a height of something on shore to determine distance off. It's superior to a bearing compass in many situations. Part of having them, however, is for the challenge of mastering the skill, the challenge of doing the math and staying comfortable with the tables, and the way in which a noonsight breaks up the nautical day. We are taking a kid, who will need daily lessons via correspondence materials, and 20 minutes of sextant work before lunch is a way to pass on a skill while providing a bit of a break on passage. Not to mention that doing SHA/star work at night is a hell of a way to teach astronomy, and, if the math skills are up to it, there's always the opportunity to do lunars.

GPS is a great way to *confirm* a position...but it too, can be off: I've seen with my own eyes a significant correction to a GPS display even while it was reporting a good contact with four satellites. Briefly, my boat was doing 130 knots SOG, until I learned I was four miles SSW of where I'd been seconds before! Thanks to pilotage, I knew that the GPS system itself was "having a moment", (I had two GPSes on, and they both went briefly mental) which is why I like to have as many sources of information as possible, like following a 10 fathom contour line, for instance.

Thanks for the comments. I didn't list everything above beforehand because I just assume that's standard. Maybe I'm naive...
;)
 
#26 · (Edited)
This thread is FANTASTIC

This is the stuff I joined up for...:)

You guys make me feel like a 5 year old on a tricycle... I learn something here every day I log on, despite... the flair ups of personality...And this is the best kind of sharing.

Mainsail I knew you had some moxie and it's nice to git a better Glimpse...thanks for the list out of your preferences and the resulting comebacks from Cam and Val. Both are a wealth of information.... Happy camper I am..:)

When I was 17 I got my first, a Mac 21, Owned togather by 3 other of my closest friends. But it was really my boat. I sailed it 100 times more they any other...every chance i got.... My dream shared with my best friend Mark was to build a Bruce Roberts 45...a 35 if we had to sacrifice.. ( I still think big )

I have yet to come to grips that you cant have it all...I still want a 50+ with every thing on it...and until I do, maybe then finding out for my self that it may or may not be to big to Handel .. then it would be like steeling someones dream away from them...or telling a kid..."Oh, You could never accomplish that" . Just putting this down into words is quickening my excitement about it and that's what it is all about for me...Rather it costs a fortune to keep it a the dock or cast the lines and head off into the unknown..Its all about the adventure and...bless your harts..:) like you have said all up to each of us.

I too love to read books about our love affair, but have humbly skipped whole sections devoted to ideas or beliefs I care not to entertain..This sailing life is such a part of our personalities as to who we are...Some might think me a snob or unwise because I want a 500,000.00 boat with all the toys... but I would be personally dejected if the 18' O'Day felt in any way unworthy or unwanted to raft up, least we share a beer and sandwich.
I hope I have conveyed my gratitude to all of you for this small glimpse into your lives and hope to someday measure up. as for now following in your wake
of knowledge is what I aspire to ... Thanks Vega for starting this....

Hope to some day raft up and share that beer with some of you... Until then I will keep that dream alive also!..;)
 
#27 ·
I bought Ms W a copy of Beth Leonard's "A Voyagers Handbook" for her birthday and it was a very good move on my part. Most of my "how to do" books have been by some of the crusty old salts like Roth and Hiscock. BL's book is both more modern in it's outloook and written in a manner that the less experienced soul can really appreciate. I also like the way in which she is happy to acknowledge areas were they have gone astray.
Good stuff.
 
#28 ·
Yes, I agree. Leonard's no amateur, but she retains enough humility or at least honesty about her mistakes and foul-ups to make the materials seem approachable. This is combined with budget breakdowns and various "degrees of complexity" to which one, or one's line of credit, can aspire. There's also a fair degree of realism about how much money you can make in transit: not much, so start saving now...

I love those older, crustier guys like Hiscock and Roth, because they have such a high degree of internalized seamanship (they had to, as nobody was going to save their asses when they were out there, and facilities were slim to none). Unfortunately, this means for the general reader that a lot of stuff doesn't make sense. I remember reading the otherwise excellent Roth book "How to Sail Around the World", when Roth decides around 1990 (he's already pretty old at this point) to buy a Santa Cruz 50 and solo circumnavigate. What follows are what he's learned...but not how he could afford to buy a 50 footer with enough gadgets and mechanical aids for an old salt to consider going around the world in it! Some of the practicalities, admittedly the less glamorous stuff, is missing. Later, Roth decides that a 35 foot Pretorian is ideal, and he and his wife move aboard...I guess he got a nice pile of cash for the SC50!

It's not as ridiculously stiff upper lip as the Smeatons' prose:

"Beryl's arm was broken, our cabin was torn off and the rudder stock was bent. 100 miles east was the lee shore of rock-fanged Chile. 'Never mind, dear,' said Beryl, 'tea's up!' After the obliging 50 knot gale had cooled it, I downed my trusty mug, and three pitchpoles later, we had a new deck. Forty hours of bucket work cleared the bilges AND put out the fire. Jolly good! That night, we deserved our extra Hovis biscuit, which unfortunately stank of kerosene."
 
#29 ·
When I think of cruising, I don't think about a solo circumnavigate. I don't think they are one and the same nor so they belong in the same conversation. Hey that's me and frankly at this stage of my life, I can't fathom a solo circumnavigate. Crossing an ocean is another thing all together and as I see it, it is still cruising. It is also something with the right boat I would love to do. But for right now, I will settle for the keys and the Caribbean.
 
#30 ·
Lot's of good stuff here today. It's great to hear from more experienced sailors and I actually like it when someone disagrees with my ideas. It makes me re-think my position. I am still convinced that small and simple is the way to go. However, I do realize that our way is not for everyone. Most wives, for example, demand a greater degree of creature comforts than mine and will almost always demand a larger closet and bathroom. Laura, bless her soul, is true shellback, having crossed the equator in a square rigged ship and is in her glory changing headsails on the foredeck in a rising gale, or climbing the ratlines to reef topsails. (Personally I'd be happy if I never again see wind above 25 knots):cool:

As the man said, we each have to make our own decisions. I have watched a lot of cruisers passing through Hawaii over the years and have come to several conclusions based on my observations and experience. For example, I'd rather spend my time in port washing down a cheeseburger with a pint of cold draft beer at the pub than fixing the refrigerator I installed so I could have cold beer and fresh meat at sea. At sea I drink red wine or whiskey, neat (Actually I don't drink at sea at all but you see my point). We have no refrigerator and see no need for one. "How do you keep the mayonnaise?" you may ask. We don't use it. I won't go into a long dissertation on the subject here. Suffice it to say that we have been living, and eating, quite well for a good many years without a fridge. Don't be so shocked. Few people had refrigerators until the 1940s.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that my way is the only way, or the right way, just one of several ways. And, as someone else said here, I'm no Luddite. We use GPS for primary navigation, plan our route and watch movies on our laptop. Our next planned purchase for the boat is an ipod compatible stereo so we can eliminate the 400 CDs we carry in a binder (The old stereo quit on us while crossing the Pacific anyway, eating my favorite Beach Boys CD in the process).:(

Valiente, there are a couple of seeming contradictions in your post. Concerning my comment about needing a mechanical log or other manual means of determining boat speed for maintaining a DR position you said:

The GPSes do this quite well, and we keep hourly logs from which we derive set and drift, etc. DR positions are customarily kept and then compared with bearings taken from the shore (when it's visible) or against GPS reports. I plan to add celestial-derived positioning into the mix in order to add another element this summer.

Further down the page you say:

GPS is a great way to *confirm* a position...but it too, can be off: I've seen with my own eyes a significant correction to a GPS display even while it was reporting a good contact with four satellites. Briefly, my boat was doing 130 knots SOG, until I learned I was four miles SSW of where I'd been seconds before! Thanks to pilotage, I knew that the GPS system itself was "having a moment", (I had two GPSes on, and they both went briefly mental) which is why I like to have as many sources of information as possible, like following a 10 fathom contour line, for instance.

OK. You like using a sextant but, remember, we didn't get a good enough look at the sun to get a sight for over a month on our crossing.

Replying to my comment about maintaining a written deck log you wrote:

I keep a dual log of positional and maintenance information. I only know a few people on Lake Ontario who even keep a log at all, but it's how I determine oil change intervals, weather states, total sailing days, etc.

I differentiate between the deck log and the maintenance log, butwhat I'm talking about here is a record of your position plots, be they by DR, Observation or GPS. My point was the need for position determined by two or more separate means, belt and suspenders, and comparing the relative accuracy of the positions determined by various methods so you are aware of the accuracy you are achieving. As far as not keeping a log on the lake, even one as big as Ontario, we didn't keep a deck log while island hopping in home waters either, other than to keep track of engine time, fuel consumption etc. but, I submit that when one is out of sight of land for a month it is a different kettle of fish altogether. Position derived from compass, chronometer and log and recorded in the logbook as the DR position is an independent back up for your GPS and/or celestial derived position.

But again, that's just my preference. You have a lot of time for that sort of thing at sea and I enjoy the process. (I might add that I agree with your observations on celestial. It's just that on a boat the size of a Vega in all but a flat calm sea it is nearly impossible to get a decent sight.)

On the subject of logbooks: we use a day planner zipper binder with tabs dividing the engine log, provisioning lists, stowage plan, expense record, position log and daily journal. It has pockets and inserts to hold our passports, vessel documentation, Veterinarians health certificate for the cat, Yacht Club membership cards, Coast Guard inspection certificate etc. You will really impress the Coasties if you whip out the book that has everything organized at your fingertips. The inspection, if they bother to inspect at all after seeing that you have your act together, will go a lot more smoothly. When they ask if you have flares, for example, just flip to the page where you have recorded the purchase and expiration dates and tell them. What could have been an ugly experience ended up nothing more that them standing on the dock filling out the form and me sitting on the boat with my logbook.

Good point about the barometer BTW. Essential equipment for offshore, in my opinion, but, like everything else, only if you know how to use it. Laura got quite good at forecasting the weather using the barometer, thermometer and watching the clouds. Then again, you may have a weather fax or satellite internet connection but what's the fun in that eh?

We enjoy being self reliant. We enjoy learning how sailors crossed the oceans in the 18th 19th and early 20th centuries and trying out their methods in our own voyaging. The old ways still work, are challenging and, for us, fun. But let's not be foolish about it. We carry a set of signal flags for fun. Not as a substitute for a VHF.

Malie ka kai.
 
#41 ·
Valiente, there are a couple of seeming contradictions in your post.

Yes, I see that. Looks like I want it both ways. I suppose it's because it is hard to obtain a taff rail/Walker log these days, and what I've read of them seems to involve losing them to hungry, large fish. I suppose I could use the very traditional method of chucking a board on a bridle off the bow, and counting the seconds until it passes the stern! Fun for the kid, maybe.

Concerning my comment about needing a mechanical log or other manual means of determining boat speed for maintaining a DR position you said:

The GPSes do this quite well, and we keep hourly logs from which we derive set and drift, etc. DR positions are customarily kept and then compared with bearings taken from the shore (when it's visible) or against GPS reports. I plan to add celestial-derived positioning into the mix in order to add another element this summer.

Further down the page you say:

GPS is a great way to *confirm* a position...but it too, can be off: I've seen with my own eyes a significant correction to a GPS display even while it was reporting a good contact with four satellites. Briefly, my boat was doing 130 knots SOG, until I learned I was four miles SSW of where I'd been seconds before! Thanks to pilotage, I knew that the GPS system itself was "having a moment", (I had two GPSes on, and they both went briefly mental) which is why I like to have as many sources of information as possible, like following a 10 fathom contour line, for instance.

OK. You like using a sextant but, remember, we didn't get a good enough look at the sun to get a sight for over a month on our crossing.

No moon or stars at night, either? If I have confirmation of my time, I don't necessarily need a noon sight.

You said:
I differentiate between the deck log and the maintenance log, butwhat I'm talking about here is a record of your position plots, be they by DR, Observation or GPS. My point was the need for position determined by two or more separate means, belt and suspenders, and comparing the relative accuracy of the positions determined by various methods so you are aware of the accuracy you are achieving.

Sometimes the problem is terminology. What I usually do on the lake is to study the lake chart to get a general bearing that combines shortest distance with a safe margin off any known nav hazards (there are few on Lake Ontario excepting a couple of reefs, rocks and headlands). Then I do my plots on a chartbook, a "not for navigation" wire binder collection of older, out of copyright charts that nonetheless suffice for plotting courses. Due to the "bent carrot" shape of Lake Ontario, the logical course will frequently be several miles offshore, so what you want is bearings to whatever landmarks you can see at that distance, of which there are several (CN Tower, Crysler Point power station chimney, etc.) So I will take visual bearings on deck, plus a simultaneous GPS position, and only if they fail to match will I trot out the "official" paper chart. In heavy weather or fog, I will keep a DR in terms of noting how long and at what logged speed (either from the sounder, which has a SOG function, or the helm GPS)and course we've been travelling. I don't mind sailing in fog in terms of navigation, but I do worry about other vessels, which is why I'm looking forward to getting radar. Radar is not necessary for yachts on the Great Lakes in most situations, but I believe it's pretty critical on an ocean-going boat, if you can justify the power draw issues and can interpret the display. I've had a bit of practice at this, and I am fascinated by looking at distant weather via radar, as well as discerning seawall gaps at night and other hard to locate features.

(I might add that I agree with your observations on celestial. It's just that on a boat the size of a Vega in all but a flat calm sea it is nearly impossible to get a decent sight.)

I would imagine. Our boat is a more stable platform naturally, and having the ability to brace against the pilothouse (handy for binoculars as well) means you can do the bob and weave thing smoothly in order to bring down the sun or planet.

On the subject of logbooks: we use a day planner zipper binder with tabs dividing the engine log, provisioning lists, stowage plan, expense record, position log and daily journal. It has pockets and inserts to hold our passports, vessel documentation, Veterinarians health certificate for the cat, Yacht Club membership cards, Coast Guard inspection certificate etc. You will really impress the Coasties if you whip out the book that has everything organized at your fingertips. The inspection, if they bother to inspect at all after seeing that you have your act together, will go a lot more smoothly. When they ask if you have flares, for example, just flip to the page where you have recorded the purchase and expiration dates and tell them. What could have been an ugly experience ended up nothing more that them standing on the dock filling out the form and me sitting on the boat with my logbook.

That's a good idea. I use a binder with three-hole paper currently, but the "ship's papers" are by the companionway in a plastic slipcover. The zipper binder might be a better idea because it should be at least splash-proof.

Frankly, a lot of my decisions come from having the pilothouse, which I treat as an office...a dry office. I only bring on deck what I need to, which is usually just a handheld VHF and maybe a handheld GPS. If it's raining, I'll move inside unless I need to be actively sailing with a lot of sail trimming.


Good point about the barometer BTW. Essential equipment for offshore, in my opinion, but, like everything else, only if you know how to use it. Laura got quite good at forecasting the weather using the barometer, thermometer and watching the clouds. Then again, you may have a weather fax or satellite internet connection but what's the fun in that eh?

In addition to the wristwatch (which shows me just now that the pressure drop of the last six hours has levelled off), we have a traditional aneroid barometer, plus a Speedtech recording barometer with humidity and temp readings. Once calibrated, it has proven to be exceptionally accurate (there's a major weather station 200 metres from my dock). I treat the Internet connection (wireless at dock) when I have a laptop aboard like the GPS: it provides some of the data to determine how I plan my day. For instance, if it's stinking hot with a SSW breeze in late July at 9 A.M., and I see on a North American weather map storms in Indiana or Illinois or Michigan, odds are excellent that squalls will form by late afternoon and will march right up the lake. I have also used live weather radar in race situations, not only to determine whether it's safe to race at all, but to gauge where disturbed air is likely to be, and at what point the onshore and offshore winds of evening will trade places. All good fun, if you don't put too much faith in it.

We enjoy being self reliant. We enjoy learning how sailors crossed the oceans in the 18th 19th and early 20th centuries and trying out their methods in our own voyaging. The old ways still work, are challenging and, for us, fun. But let's not be foolish about it. We carry a set of signal flags for fun. Not as a substitute for a VHF.

I made a Q flag, but I have to admit, I don't carry signal flags. Maybe after I get a sewing machine!:D
 
#31 ·
Vega,

I really do like your idea for the logbook. Good thinking, I'm definitely going to steal that idea.

We have two GPS on board, one installed at the chart table with a cockpit repeater and a handheld. I'll probably make that two handheld shortly.

As an aside, our log fried itself some time back. Now we use the handheld GPS instead.

Rains stopped for awhile in old Sydney Town, need to head off down to the old girl to check for leaks.

Cheers for now
 
#32 ·
Another "favorite" post from halekai. This is starting to sound like hero worship.;) But seriously, You guys are dead on about the books. They are nice to read, fun to have around, convenient for reference, time killers, relaxation enhancers, but a place like this or other forums where things get hashed out, much better IMHO.
 
#33 ·
Who said

anything about hashing things out.....

Just Kidding...:D
 
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