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Knock Downs

104K views 280 replies 90 participants last post by  Barquito 
#1 ·
Being that I experienced a knock down this pass season, was wondering if anyone else has had such an experience. I've always been fearful of such a think, as was told wasn't really experienced at sailing unless had been through one. Well for me it was a real rush once it was over, as didn't really realize the whole experience until it was over. It happened of Cape George in the Northumberland Sound.
 
#3 · (Edited)
As for not being an experience sailor unless you've been in a knock down, I find that comical. I think a good sailor always expects the unexpected and is as ready as he or she can be with a well thought out plan before it happens. Is that to say you need a plan for everything no, but you should have things on board to impliment them. Do you have to loose a rudder, tiller or a rig to be experienced, that's B.S. It's being able to execute a back up plan properly that makes a seasoned sailor. Do you have to go though the experience physically to be experienced no, I ll be it it would help for next time. hell I hope I'm never an experienced sailor.
How did you deal with it I've never had one. Liked to hear. PEACE
 
#4 ·
Late September I was sailing out of Charlottetown Harbour at about 2230 to arrive at Ballantynes Cove about 1000. There was a forcast for a shower around 0400 just in St Georges Bay at the entrance to Strait of Canso. With lighter wind then had been forcasted over night I arrived just of Cape George Pt. (45.57N-61.53W) at 1430 in a growing storm, winds off the bow of 50knots and gusting, with sea heights of about 25ft, with a larger one every 200 to 300 feet of about 40 feet plus. While sailing in this weather with just the main in its third reef, I was able to develop an approach which was manageable. After watching out for the large waves when they came, never expected to see back to back 40 plus waves. It was the second one which pushed me over and sinking the mast about two feet under water. The whole think happen so fast, that it was the mess in the boat that spoke of the act. It was at that moment that a new trust for my boat and a new bond that had developed. It took another hour to round the point and enter the harbour before I could clean up, which didn't take place until the next morning, because once my lines were tied I crashed completely worn out.
 
#5 ·
Experienced at sailing is quite relative. Some pretty famous and much travelled sailors have never been in storms, or even in over 40 knots, partly as a function of where and when they've sailed, but mainly because they've deliberately tried to avoid such situations by using practiced observations, forecasts, charts, local knowledge and so on. My impression of the Canso/Strait area is that it's pretty tight and can build up very quickly if the wind is coming from the west or north east at certain speeds. May I ask if you were harnessed to the boat and did you downflood through hatches, or were you "battened down"?

A concern for me in situations where I've been well over (by which I mean 60 degrees or so, not knocked down) is the soundness of my motor mounts and whether I would pollute my fuel through a submerged vent. It's made me think I should put stopcocks at the fuel vents...but I'd have to remember to open them!
 
#7 ·
The boat got no water and the there were no internal spills, as have balls installed in lines to stop back flow if and when such a thing might happen. As for being harneessed in yes, at two points and trailing a floater line of about 70 feet behind the boat. As for avoiding storms here, its not always possible, as white squalls are a common thing. On my sail from Cape Breton to Newfoundland St John's harbour across the Grand Banks was a great sail took 2 days and 14 hours. This sail was also a good schooling as I used the weather fronts to help me, tucking in behind the lows to have them suck me along. The sail was made in very late October. The Grand banks were as flat as a table top when I arrived.
 
#8 ·
The boat has a shoal keel, I draw 3'10", but must say that she weights much more then made as I was directed by Charlie Morgan, and the weight is low. As for the mast it just got a wash, and no instruments on the top were damaged, speaking to Raymarine products and their durability.
 
#9 ·
There's no substitude for the actual physical experience, sounds like you handled it well. Two more questions, where you alone and would you have done anything different if anything. Bad weather is part of sailing and a challenge, I understand that you used it to your adavantage. Thanks for sharing PEACE
 
#10 ·
Yes was alone as my mate likes to arrive when I make harbour when on a long sail, and personally would sooner sail solo, as then wouldn't have to worry about anyone else, as I've read in most cases the boats usaully come out okay its the crew who bail first. But this year have made my mate captain and added more stuff to make sailing easier for her. Once I have some sort of comfort zone that she might be able to handle watches then we set sail, with a five year sail plan, I find the preparation very consuming and exciting, and this site is very informative for me.
 
#11 ·
dodger, fun stuff ain't it? I wrote on here about a knockdown I took on Oh Joy. One of my Son's and I went out in 10-15 for some spirited sailing with all the white sails up on a beam reach in Southerlies. Oh Joy is a 1961 Knutson Yawl, 39'4" LOA, 10' Beam, 14K#'s and a full keel with spruce sticks. We have blasted along towards the San Juan de Fuca at 7 knots for about 25 miles when we noticed rain about 10 miles off to the West. I knew a cold front was coming but the forecast was for 15-20 from the West after the change. Seeing it was 3PM and sunset was at 4:30 (PNW) I figured it was time to run for home. The winds clocked around to the West and stayed at about 10 so we beat off for room to fly the chute. I have an Assym with an ATN tracker and sock and was getting everything squared away and ready for hoist while Jay drove. Just as I was reaching for the scoop line a monstrous puff (30 knots or so) hit and the scoop line pulled loose from the cleat. Instantly, the chute self deployed and the boat laid over with me on the foredeck. I stepped from the deck to the side of the staysail boom and looked back at Jay who was laying on the low side trying to steer. I looked to see if water was coming in the house, as it was open, or the cockpit. Not a drop in either and us with the spreaders in the water for both sticks along with the sails. She shook herself off and sprinted around to the wind and I stepped down from the boom I was standing on to the deck as the chute was pinned to the shrouds. As she started falling off again, I blew the halyard and dumped the chute in the water. Now there's a lot of lines on the chute so while Jay kept her pinned to the wind, I ran around unhooking everything. While we started pulling the chute aboard the rain and the cold hit. By the time we got everything squared away, the Main down and the staysail up, the temp had dropped to 38 F, the wind came up to 50 knots and we were soaked. We fell off downwind to Flounder Bay under staysail alone running 8.5 knots and freezing. I showed Jay how to surf the waves coming off the quarter and we made it back in a little over three hours. Other than catching pneumonia, it was a great sail. Chute scoops are great, until that line gets away from ya.
 
#14 ·
Is there a difference

between a knock-down and a broach?

Charlie Cobra said: "Instantly, the chute self deployed and the boat laid over with me on the foredeck." IMHO there is a considerable difference between a broach and a knock-down. This sounds more like a broach.

Having to actually go through stuff to be considered an experienced sailor is clearly nonsense. I have friends who have done three different circumnavs over 25 years and have not had to weather a full-blown storm. They have enormous reserves of experience but not in certain areas.

However, here is a quote from Eric Hiscock (Cruising Under Sail): ". . . fortunate is he who early in his sailing career encounters and successfully weathers a severe blow. No one who has done so can honestly say that he has enjoyed it, nor would he readily seek to repeat the experience but in no other way can he gain confidence in his ability as a seaman . . . ."

We got caught in a squash zone off Raratonga with windspeeds that locked our windspeed indicator at 74 knots and seas that were huge (don't ask how big because I would probably lie). We were all down below lying a-hull waiting for first light when a wave broke and hit us beam on and laid the mast in the water. It smashed all the cabinetry off the starboard side of the boat and we all ended up sitting on the port side port-lights for a short time.

A few hours later, sailing out of the storm, we were again unable to avoid a breaking wave and with two people in the cockpit, the mast was again laid in the water but into the trough of the wave so it was way below horizontal. That is what I consider a knock-down.

In both of these, the boat stood up quite quickly. The cockpit was filled to the top of the coamings and the drains took a while to empty it out so we took huge volumes of water into the boat through the cracks and gaps in the washboards. We soon learned a better way to avoid breaking waves. We never got knocked down again.

What we will never know is how much more it would have taken to turn the knock-down into a roll-over.:eek:

This experience has definitely made me less scared of severe weather but as Hiscock said, I have no burning desire to repeat it. And you don't have to experience this sort of stuff to be an "experienced" sailor.

Andre
 
#15 ·
Perhaps but when the sticks are in the water, it's hard to argue the results. The mast tips were in as well as the spreaders but she didn't stay that way long. I was surprised how quickly the main dumped the water but I suppose having it sheeted out helped.

How did I feel? Surprised, edgy and pissed that I let it happen in the first place followed by calm and thoughtful action to rectify it. Yeah, there was some adrenaline but that's cool too. Having been in much worse situations than this (non sailing) it wasn't that hard to recover and do what had to be done afterwards. Another lesson learned cheaply. Don't get cocky!
 
#16 ·
Twice

But not in conditions you discribed...but we almost lost the boat on the second one...
 
#17 ·
To me, the term broach is when a boat inadvertently turns broadside to the wind or waves and the result is sometimes a knockdown. The knockdown could be caused by either the wind or breaking waves (worse) but the broach is a function of loss of steering for a variety of reason.

Broaching and taking a knockdown with a kite up is quite common amongst racers but being knocked down while cruising is a whole different ball game. Unless the conditions are extreme it is probably a result of poor seamanship (too much sail, badly balanced helm, broken windvane/autopilot)
 
#21 · (Edited)
Unless the conditions are extreme it is probably a result of poor seamanship (too much sail, badly balanced helm, broken windvane/autopilot)
And sometimes, no matter how good you are or how well trimmed the boat is, the waves get big enough with short enough wave periods that you actually fall off them! I was knocked down twice in one storm, The Perfect Storm (and not even near the bad parts), once by falling off the wave and the other time was by having the bow stuffed by a huge wave which resulted in a "broach" as you guys call it. Semantics aside when the mast goes in the water, for what ever reason, I call it a knock down.

In my experience you will:

1) Get hurt (it's hard not to when a 50 foot vessel is dropped like a toy boat) I've broken fingers been smashed in the head by a flying VHF and a wine glass and had my eye swollen shut from a stopper knot that was whipping around at light speed! If you want my advice wear a bike helmet & ski goggles when it gets that rough!

2) Not have time to be scared! Your too busy..

3) Will at times lose control of the vessel no matter how good you are. Even hove to you can take a knockdown. Displacement hulls are not designed to go 14 knots down the face of a wave and when they do they don't handle the way you might think.

4) The boat will right faster than you thought possible. Everything happens in slow motion except the boat coming back up and the water draining from the cockpit..

5) Things will be broken no matter how much thought went into being prepared.

6) You will most likely not be knocked down due to wind but rather short and steep waves (unless racing with a chute).

7) Fast building storms IMHO are the most dangerous because the wave periods are very short compared to slower building storms which tend to have bigger overall seas but are more spread out..

8) The forces on the rudder in this type of weather are astronomical! Even with wheel steering your entire upper body will be sore for weeks! This is NO place for wimpy rudder designs..

9) Lock the lazarettes!

10) You can make decent head way under bare poles but do give up some control!!! I find sail "slivers", such as two tiny feet of genny, work better than a storm sail in some conditions..

11) Lash the dinghy to the fore deck with ratchet straps and have good pad eyes for this purpose!!

12) Desitin! In this kind of weather the LAST thing you want is SWAMP ASS. Trust me you're already miserable enough! Gold Bond does not cut it with industrial grade, Ocean induced, salty swamp ass. An NO there is NO WAY to stay dry even with your gourmet brand Henri LLoyd or Musto gear...

13) Vaseline petroleum jelly. Put it on your face! Trust me on this one it feels like your being sand blasted and the Vaseline helps....

If I think of more I'll add it...

That being said I have not encountered real sever weather since the 90's!! Woo Hooo, cross my fingers, and knock on wood!!!!
 
#20 ·
Did one ever figure that mother nature has a mind of her own and what ever you have done and prepared for she might just do something else as in my case throw another 40 plus wave at me. If the case was do be prepared guess when winds are up and seem a little unsettled stay at the dock, NOT. I would think that second guessing is okay, until your in it.
 
#22 ·
Maine Sail, I've seen 13 knots down a wave on a boat with a theoretical hull speed of 6.9. It ain't fun. If it's a tiller boat like mine, you're arching back and using rowing technique with your feet planted on the opposite seat. Your neck gets a crick in about 30 minutes with hours to go. However, remember these other guys have seen worse crap than I.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Charlie

I've written of them before...

First one pretty uneventful between Mukilteo and Hat Island back in 76 in our Mac 21. Popped back up in about 30 sec with full main of water with me standing in the sail.

Second was last summer in a friends (Bayliner 20) I think??? ... was believe it or not on Lake Pearrygin...One of thoes Eastern Washington 10 second 50knt wind gusts had half the tents in the campground riped from there stakes and tumble weeding and us laid down flat...the problem with this one was two fold...The swing keel retracted up and I had a dickens of a time clawing it out of the keel stub only to loose it again having to claw it out again ,,riped a few fingernails on that one I did..second the design of the boat has to wide a hatch for the beam of the boat and with the washboards out it started to immediately take on LOTS of water so much so that when we finally righted her she just kept rolling over and pined me under the main under water..no big deal really I am a very calm type and swam free..needless to say she is turtles now and I told my friend the owners we were going to loose her...well she kept an air pocket and about 6' of the bow above water albeit mast straight down...we were of coarse able to get a ski boat to come out to us and SLOWLY pull us in and by getting the keel finally out again and the two of us standing on its very end could keep the mast horizontal enough not to dammage it as we neared shore...once there we had lots of help to lift mast and weight keel to right her and bail...by then the Park Rangers had arrived to do a head count...

The real scary thing was my friend and the owner (our Assoiate Pastor) No green horn he delivers boats for a brokerage on the side... had just been given this boat a month before and had soloed it from Washington Park to James Island to meet up for a weekend mens group crab fest..oblivious to thease design problems..

Anyway... more campfire fodder then I'v had in a long time...:)

PS after this experience this is the only thing I now worry about my Irwin swing keel... and am trying to figure out some sort of down locking system... The Mac's never retracted but it does make you wonder...
 
#24 ·
I had my V-21's stick in the water and the keel stayed down without a locking pin, luckily. Strange to sit on the side of the hull while the boat decides whether to stand back up or not. On a lake with no lifelines so the transition was easy when it finally made up it's mind.
 
#25 ·
The reason for me starting this thread has been met, and have enjoyed hearing of personal accounts and personal reactions. Sitting here right now in Quidi Vidi aboard Artful, with 100 kilometers winds and blowing snow out side. Mother natural is handing out her best.
 
#26 ·
To Bad

The rest of us want to hear more...;)
 
#27 ·
Mainsail

Love the helmet and ski goggle Idea...Im going to use it...going to use a whitewater helmet though ...I think bike helmets are the goofiest looking thing invented...;)
 
#29 ·
I've never experienced a knockdown as a result of waves, and would prefer not to. I have cruised my 22' trailer sailer quite a bit and because of that purposely sailed in thunderstorms on protected waters to gain experience handling bad weather and have had the mast in the water several times (I replaced all of the rigging on the boat before doing this). What got me in those circumstances were wind shifts associated with gusts. They just blew me on my side and held me there until the gust slacked.

The first time it was kind of tense, but the boat righted quickly. If there is any chance of bad weather I always batten down like a hurricane is coming, everything has to be stowed. I lock all the lockers and hatches, and don't open them once the weather hits. Life jackets and jacklines are used. The worst thing that ever happend was one May when we we playing in a thunderstorm. I was on the low side and the water was like ice. One of my friends said I was a lovely shade of blue.

Playing in the storms was a great help because when I've been in places where there was no land in sight and a squalls hit I was able to deal with them comfortable, because I'd already experienced bad weather. Once the boat was under control I would try diferent tactics to see what I could do with them. I must confess that there does seem to be a big difference of wind power in protected waters and open waters. The weather service and locals with anenometers would say there were 30-40 MPH winds with gusts in the 50's on the lakes but when I've been in open waters 20-30 with gusts in the 40's (according to the weather service) was a lot more intense. It must have something to do with turbulence from the trees and shore clutter on lakes vs nothing to disturb the wind over a longer fetch on more open water, but that is a pure guess on my part. The waves were of course much bigger, but we are only talking 6 or 8 feet with a 10 to 20 foot period in open water.

I don't plan on purposely trying this where big waves are involved. There is just too much risk. Actually I don't go out asking for it anymore, I learned what I needed to and now I just use the lessons when required.
 
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