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Budget Cruising/Bluewater Cruising

34K views 104 replies 28 participants last post by  hellsop 
#1 ·
Budget Cruising​

Given the discussions in another thread regarding cruising (especially bluewater cruising) on a very tight budget, I thought we might take a stab at putting together a list of what would be the BARE MINIMUM of: boats, gear, education to cruise with at least MINIMAL SAFETY.

I think this will provide some good insight into the realities of cruising on a budget and the things we have to have and want to have. I hope it will force us all to consider those things that are critical systems and may, in effect, force us to turn back time to a day when many of the gadgets we take for granted were not available.

I would like this to be an open discussion. I think those with experience living aboard, cruising, and being offshore will provide the best insight. Be conscious of the advice you give, because there may be many that will read this and follow it.

Going offshore, or into the water at all, can be risky business. Best to go prepared. Maybe putting all of our thoughts together we can figure a way to do it on a budget.

Thanks.

- CD

PS THis is the first of what may be several neccessary edits in our discussion:

A boat that will be good for cruising North AND South America. A boat that can make the jump to Bermuda. A boat that can make a minimum 5-7 days at sea with at least MINIMUM SAFETY. I also want to discuss the gear required to do that. The boat is only a piece.
 
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#2 ·
Budget Cruising​

Given the discussions in another thread regarding cruising (especially bluewater cruising) on a very tight budget, I thought we might take a stab at putting together a list of what would be the BARE MINIMUM of: boats, gear, education.

Thanks.

- CD
Bigger is not always better. Only get as big a boat as you or your cruising partner can handle single (god forbid anything happen to either of you).

Overly small and simple may be just that. It takes a certain amount of skill and knowledge to make any voyage be it coastal or blue water.

Know how to nav. by paper. Electrical problems happen at the worst possible time. KNOW PAPER CHARTS.

Race boats are well fit for the race marks, cruisers are well built for cruising. My boat will never race and a small J will not likely cruise. Know your boats purpose and use/exploit it. Buy a bay boat if that is your dream, buy a blue water boat if that is your dream, buy a racer if that is your dream. Crossing the lines dramatically is seldom successful.
 
#3 ·
I will not be able to provide a lot into what makes the best boat to go on, as I opt for more of the creature comforts a small boat would not be able to handle.

Things that are important, in any bluewater/cruising boat, in my opinion, are:

1) Tankage. THis is especially true for water.

2) Good seaberth.

3) LOTS of storage, with a lot of that being below the waterline. We take a lot of can goods... others may not. But there will be many things you carry that add negative stability if above the waterline. This will likely be more of a factor on a small boat.

4) A well draining cockpit. I have been pooped once, and should have been who knows how many times before that. I think this is imperative as the time it happened to us were were only 24 hours/120-130 miles from shore.

5) Some method of cooking. I would probably put this as a critical system.

6) Decent lazarette for sails and gear.

7) Windvane or autopilot or the ability to put it on. You cannot make a passage without it if you are singlehanding... at least not safely. I would put this as a critical system too.

8) A SOLID, DRY Cabin with high-end portholes and hatches (the latter if going offshore).

9) Deep bilge and an electric bilge pump. I feel the latter is a mandatory - though this will require a battery. I guess the elctric bilge pump could be debated??? Thoughts?

10) VHF? I feel a handheld is the very minimum. However, could it be debated that you have to have a base unit?? The power/receive will be vastly better. Thoughts? This requires a battery.

11) Intl/Colreg recognized lighting. Mandatory... but could you get buy with a solid white light powered by lamp oil?

12) Sextant, and the ability to properly use it.

13) Charts... paper, not electronic.

14) Radar reflector. I feel this is madatory. Others will dissagree.

I am trying to think of a way around batteries, and an engine. I think you can get by without an engine. I am not positive about the batteries. Unfortunately, if you have a battery, you are now forced into a way to charge it. THat means solar (expensive), wind (unreliable and marginally expensive), or an engine (which now is maintenance, weight, fuel, spare parts, etc).

THoughts???

- CD
 
#4 · (Edited)
Sailor Preparation:

I think that education is probably the most important part of the three. Without a proper background and skills, trying to go bluewater in a budget boat is going to be be far more dangerous than it would be otherwise. Also, they need to have some pretty solid sailing experience IMHO.

The Boat:

The next most important thing is having a good boat with solid bones. Some boats are far better suited for this than others... some good pocket cruisers include: most of the small Alberg designs: Cape Dory 25, Pearson Ariel, Triton, Alberg 30, etc. The Albin Vega, Southern Cross 28/31, Elizabethan 31, Flicka, PSC Dana 24, Westsail 32, and Bristol 29.9 are also good choices.

Some small multihulls that would be good choices are the Heavenly Twins 26, Catalac 8m, and the Iroquois. Some of the Cross, Piver and Brown designs are quite good, but most were home built, and will probably have construction and durabilty issues, so I'd avoid them unless you have special knowledge of them.

Boat Gear:


IMHO can be relatively minimal. This is especially true on a smaller boat, since it won't have the ability to support a lot of the more complicated systems found on larger boats. It also doesn't make sense to stock up on expensive systems that aren't well suited to the pocket cruising lifestyle or mentatlity.

Books:

John Vigor's book, Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere is a good starting point for anyone thinking about doing this. The Pardeys have written quite a bit about this, and I'd recommend their books and Don Casey's The Sensible Cruiser as starting points for the budget cruiser's library. Thomas Firth Jones's Multihull Voyaging is a good book for those interested in budget cruising in a multihull.

Navigation Gear:

Paper charts, a GPS, hand-bearing compass, dividers, parallel rule, pencils, binoculars are a minimum.

While I'd agree with most of what CD said, I think the lighting depends on what size boat you've got. A masthead tricolor is probably a necessity for offshore work, and deck level lights for in-hoarbor/coastal work.
 
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#5 ·
Sextant? I think we are long past the sextant era.
Bringing a sextant (very expensive) requires all the appropriate books (very expensive) and the knowledge to do the calcs.

I'll take a boatload of GPS receivers first. Cheap, no books, no calcs, better accuracy, works in all lighting and weather conditions.
 
#6 ·
A GPS requires batteries. It is something else to fail. Given the minimum amount of space, money, and other saftey gear, I elected to take it off of the mandatory list.

The truth is that you can get a handeld lat/lon gps very inexpensively. However, what if it fails offshore? You have a backup? Backups start costing money. What if you got swamped?

I do not want this to turn into another sextant thread. I carry one on my boat, but I am not one of the people that advocates it either. I feel a solid gps and backup(s) are the way to go... but I am not budget minded. I am thinking bare minimum.

Would you still opt out of the GPS in place of a... Cape Dory 25, for example??

Thoughts?

- CD
 
#10 ·
Yup... Seamanship is key to bluewater sailing on a small boat. I wouldn't say a Drascombe Lugger is a particularly good choice as a bluewater cruiser, but Webb Chiles was able take one 3/4 of the way around the world in a near circumnavigation.

Actually, technically, it was two Drascombe Luggers, since one got confiscated in Egypt.
 
#8 ·
Non-chartplotting GPS units are relatively cheap... you can get two or three for the price of a sextant, and many can be powered by both AA batteries and the house bank on the boat, with a proper power cord.
 
#11 ·
The fact is that most of us would work out our sights with calculators anyway. That saves us having to carry the volumes of books needed but brings the battery problem back. If you are going to carry a calculator (or even a flashlight) then several $100 GPS units are much cheaper than one reasonable sextant.
Turn on the GPS at dawn, take a fix, do the same at noon, do the same at evening twilight, one set of batteries will last weeks.
The sextant needs:
either books or a calculator (batteries)
accurate time (batteries) or a SW radio (batteries)
Knowledge
Practise
Clear skies and a steady deck
and even then you'd be lucky to get within two miles.
 
#14 ·
I agree with what you are saying for me. Look back in some older threads and you will see what I feel!!! But I am trying to think of a really, minimalist way. Using your example, the knowledge is "free". A calculator can be solar powered or run off the batts it has for a very long time. I actually use a wind clock on my boat, but even a cheap digital watch at walmart seems to never want to die (tongue in cheek). So you could avoid the batteries and the GPS. Maybe take both... and the Sextant for the backup. The key is practice with the sextant... most definitely agree there.

But lets say he got the flika, could he do without the batts? The engine? WIthout that, you have removed a LOT of other items that must go with it. You could use oil lamp lighting.

THoughts?

- CD
 
#13 ·
Cost of sextant: Astra III, $575 (a decent, reasonably accurate instrument), or a Davis ~ $130 (a good "learn to do it" instrument, but for nav'n???)
How to book: $15-30
Nautical Almanac: $36
Sight Reduction Tables / Pub 229: $20 / each 15 deg of Latitude
Calculator to work out the sight: $300 ???? (but this is optional)

Satisfaction of knowing how to do it and getting it right: PRICELESS

VERSUS

3 Handheld GPS's from West Marine (Garmin 72): 3 X 130 = $390
36 AA batteries in value pack from Home Depot = $13

---------------

From the economic standpoint, I think the GPS wins (for safety sake -- take one of the GPSs, wrap it in Al foil, put it in a gallon size ziplock bag with 8 AA batteries, vacumn pack/shrink wrap the entire package and put it somewhere where you won't lose it). Put one of the two remaining GPSs in the drawer in your nav station. Use the third GPS. By the time they all go south on you, you'll be dead of old age or ready to sell the boat.

But, if you're a true old salt....there's nothing like a sextant -- everytime the sun shines or the stars are out (and the deck stops moving) you'll know where you are, at least within a couple of miles, that is.
 
#15 ·
Minimum for safety:
1. Lifefraft...certified and accessible.
2. All SOLAS requirements for safety gear.
3. Tethers/jacklines
4. A great anchor with rode you can handle.
5. VHF w/ dsc + handheld for ditch bag.
6. At least 3 handheld GPS's + batteries.
7. Paper charts for intended route and all "bailout" ports
8. Method for long distance communication & weather gathering: satphone or SSB/HAM.
9. Ability to repair: sails/rigging with spares or fix/patch. Plan for steering without rudder. Ability/plan to patch minor hull damage.
10. Large Manual Bilge pump and spares kit.
11. Full tool kit + rigging cutter

??Others?? Disagree with anything except GPS?? :D
 
#19 ·
The Liferaft is optional IMHO. Too often people step down into a liferaft and die from doing so and their boat is later found floating along quite happily after being abandoned.

I'd definitely agree that SOLAS-grade safety gear is the way to go. SOLAS flares alone are not that much more expensive than USCG-approved gear, but are an order of magnitude better.

I don't agree that you'd need a satphone or ssb, but do need a HF receiver at a minimum. Many small boats, especially ones on a budget, can afford the electrical load and cost of a small HF receiver but not that of a satellite phone or SSB/HAM radio. A good alternative might be the SPOT Messenger, since that would at least allow you to send a "I'm Okay" message to friends and family in the case of a delay in passage or inclement weather.
 
#16 ·
Billy-

If you're going to be storing a GPS for long-term backup, I'd highly recommend going with the Energizer Lithium AA batteries, since they have a much longer shelf life. As a bonus, they will run the GPS about four times as long as regular alkaline AA batteries and are bit lighter to boot.

There are long-term nautical almanacs that are just a bit more expensive than the annual ones, but are good for 20 years or more.
 
#17 ·
I dissagree with the SSB/Ham and the liferaft. I would not leave home without them... but he could. He will have to have a tender anyways. I did not mention that... or much of the other gear neccessary.

I understand WHY you included the SSB/Ham and Liferaft, but they are not imperative to making the trip, and in some level of safety (assuming he really watches his ports, weather, and his boat does not sink!!).

Could you exclude them, if budget minded was the key?

- CD
 
#18 ·
Regarding no engine, it is certainly doable but what a chore. The margin of safety drops by a huge chunk. Think of all the races you've been in where there wasn't any wind (or little wind). You are completely at the whim of tide and current. Here is a nightmare I lived. The Vic-Maui race to Hawaii started but because of foul tides and no wind it took us days just to get out of sight of land. It was nerve wracking being set on the rocks having to anchor when we got pushed near shore, waiting for the right wind to sail off the anchor.

I think one would end up out ahead of the boat in the dinghy rowing fairly often if you didn't have an engine.

There are some busy ports that won't let you sail in. Victoria and vancouver for example have restricted sailing areas. If you don't have an engine you gotta get a tow.

How many of the berths that you have been assigned could you have gotten into under sail?

Engines are pretty much necessary in this day and age.
 
#21 ·
The traditional vs. electronic nav thread is a complete volume that has already been done to death. (can someone post the link.....I'm too far in the bag).


Whatever your budget, think minimal with ease of replacement and maintenance. What will it cost you to get where you want to get, and maintain your lifestyle once there. Think worst case scenario, if that doesn't happen then you have more boat bucks in the bank to make it last longer. Don't get caught up in what the sailing mags say you "must have". But don't under do it.
 
#22 ·
The traditional vs. electronic nav thread is a complete volume that has already been done to death. (can someone post the link.....I'm too far in the bag).

Whatever your budget, think minimal with ease of replacement and maintenance. What will it cost you to get where you want to get, and maintain your lifestyle once there. Think worst case scenario, if that doesn't happen then you have more boat bucks in the bank to make it last longer. Don't get caught up in what the sailing mags say you "must have". But don't under do it.
I agree, but this is not a trad vs electronic thread - though I feel it will likely turn into one in many repsects. It has to, I guess.

SD and Plumper,

I agree about the engine, but it has def been done without it. I feel the engine also adds the safety aspect of getting run over by freighter because you cannot get out of the way. We have ALL felt like that.

You could avoid ports that require an engine and opt to anchor in a safe area and do the rest by foot.

I know this is hard for most of us to fathom (believe me, I am the solar/electronic KING), but I am trying to really decide what is necc and what is not absolutely necc while still keeping some margin of safety. Of course, what that margin is varies for each of us... which is why this is an open discussion.

Good discussion so far.

- CD
 
#24 ·
OK...so take of the SSB and SatRadio. Buy a transistor SSB receiver for weather forecasts.
Add an EPIRB and keep a liferaft...many boats are found floating...and you don't hear about the ones that sink! You can rent a liferaft for passages or buy a used one or a catamaran.
If you are willing to say "if the boat sinks...I don't want to be rescued and will not call for help. Then skip them...but I thought this thread was FRUGAL/Minimal cruising...not death wish cruising.
 
#26 ·
For me

even the idea of minimalist... is hard to do away with a 25 watt base unit VHF and basic running lights...We are talking 1 battrie here ...and one small trickle charge solar panel/controller to keep it up ( 200.00 )...

1) Ships dont see small boats..its our job to inform them were there..
2) Other boats cant see us without lights...yes kerosene has worked for ever but were not talking anchorage lights here were talking get em on be seen get em off type durations here... or for coming into a port...all very short duration activities...
3) I have yet to fall in love the the smell of spilled raw fuel or its dangers on a boat... A well placed, secured and vented battery is far safer for a single handledler then messing about with kerosene in route...if you want that for anchoring thats a whole different kettle of fish and I'm ok with that...

I think we have come to an age where trying to do with out the bare minimalist 12 volt system is akin to setting off in the wrong boat...

Some modern devices make our lives So much so less encumbered that doing with out is masochistic...to the expense of proving a point only..

A fully charged Group 31 will unofficaly power 16 hours of LED running lights and make 10-2 min 25 watt VHF transmissions with out a recharge spread over the time frame of a 30day ocean crossing...with no demands or attention from its owner..other then sitting quietly in its snug dry compartment...
 
#27 ·
CD-

I never said I was against an engine... I'd agree that an engine can be considered vital to safety.

I'd add a survival suit if you're boating in colder waters... especially if you have a liferaft and monohull sailboat. :)
 
#29 ·
First of all ...

I think anyone even thinking about crusing or going offshore should be required to participate in a cruising rally to Bermuda first. Preferably from New York. I think that should be required as a matter of law. :D :D :D

Kidding aside, I don't think you can do this in the way folks are looking at it. I think you first need to start with the budget. Actual dollar amounts. From there you make choices. One of those choices by the way could include working for another month or year until you have enough money to buy things you view as necessities.

Plus, unless you have more information on what the plans are you can't have this discussion sensibly either. That is, what you need to live on the hook and float around the Florida Keys will be very different than if you want to do the same thing in the northeast, or if you want to do it in the Bahamas, or if you want to cross oceans, or be in the Med, etc. Posing the question this way is like asking how much money does one need in life? You can't even start the discussion unless you also ask/know, "for what?"

And the notion of being unable to afford a handheld GPS, to me, means you can't afford to do this activity. No chance you can own a boat, go cruising, and live life if you can't afford $150 for an item that has been the single greatest safety improvement ever to hit the boating world.

Just my view. Don't mean to be a downer.
 
#30 ·
I
And the notion of being unable to afford a handheld GPS, to me, means you can't afford to do this activity. No chance you can own a boat, go cruising, and live life if you can't afford $150 for an item that has been the single greatest safety improvement ever to hit the boating world.
Nicely put! Kinda like not being able to afford a watch.
 
#31 ·
In support of traditional stuff, a good quality barometer and efficient manual bilge pumps. Whilst I agree with earlier posts on the value of electric pumps for quick evacuation, using buckets in a bilge when your power is gone SUCKS.

Also I have and use a sextant but as a hobby. I have gone 3 weeks without being able to get two intercepting position lines and resultantly no fix. So I support the "box full of h/h GPS units" approach. And by the way SD, I know that sight reduction tables last for years (in fact they never change) but I've never seen almanacs that last for years. Where does one get these? I replace my annual edition every second year.

And I also support the need for an engine! There are many places where currents set onto rocks/reefs and if the wind dies, effectively so do you. And the refusal of entry into ports under sail is also becoming more and more evident world wide. HOWEVER. . . I recall reading about a flash storm that hit the coast of Mexico years ago and several boats were blown/washed ashore and the only one to survive was one without an engine because he took no chances with the weather forecast and was gone before the $h1t hit the fan. Go figure.

Andre
 
#32 ·
I'd agree, a good manual bilge pump, or better yet, two, one in the cabin and one in the cockpit, make a lot of sense and beat the snot of out of using a bucket...

Omatako, I know the sight reduction tables don't change... and never said they did... The nautical almanacs do... I was given a small book, which unfortunately is on the boat, so I can't tell you who publishes it, and it is a set of tables that are supposed to be good for 50 years IIRC, from the date of publication. I've checked it against several of the on-line almanacs and it seems to be kosher. One company publishes a book that has the sight reduction tables and a five-year almanac in it called the "Complete On-board Celestial Navigator", which was most recently published in 2007.

 
#33 ·
I am reading this thread with a lot of interest because if my health holds out, this is something I will be doing this year. But I have to ask, is the line between cruising and bluewater that fine, that everyone gets confused or hung up on it ? To me cruising as an east coast sailor means, taking the ICW south to the Caribbean. It doesn't mean heading out to the Panama canal to some south sea island. That is bluewater.

I think I've read 2.5 pages of GPS vs. Sextants. I got it now, I hope everyone else has also. This is about budget cruising. So the questions I ask are: How are you charging your batteries ? Budget cruising to me means anchoring out not getting slips in a marina. What kind of rode and anchor are you using ? What about your windlass ? How about budget provisioning ? What about budget entertainment ? If your cruising your living on your boat 24/7. Also is budget cruising outfitting the boat or sailing her ?
 
#57 · (Edited)
Glade to hear it:



I hope your health hold out also...I am farther away from cutting loose the lines then I was yesterday..One of my daughters needs 5k for something she wants to do for a career path...:eek:

I like your questions...:)
I will get hammered on for my answer Im sure probably not from you though...

I believe what we are talking about here is two completely different personality types with more or lees a common cruising mindset. Not all but most I would call "Free spirits" One worked hard to enable him or her self the ability to set off in whatever boat they want ( with in reason ) with a residual income producing investment funding them and sail away..The other dosent want to work a day longer then they have to to and wants to get any boat that might work...plan on living and working anywhere sunny weather and and piece work jobs combine not worrying about next week and sail away...Both may either think large or small boat here and that is not my point both can be found for cheap...

Freesail: I am guessing you are more of the first type...

I like Sailaways description of Blue water because it takes away anyone else's actual personal definition of it the best...To paraphrase...he said "Anytime the boat you have feels unsafe to you in the sea condition your in is Blue Water"...I made a snide comment that that was anywhere away from the dock ..if your aboard the Tincan...( If you have been following Mr. Vauns escapades ) The point here is The harbor is blue water for a solo dingy sailor at night in the fog...

As far as batteries you will get even more opinions...I look at these two sailors the same way both will chose differently either more or less as Minimal electrical needs... but for sake of argument lets say VHF and running lights only...you asked how would you charge them..First the VHF is to communicate your intentions or whereabouts only not to listen to others chat or to chat with...maybe listen to the weather but a disposable battrie powered radio can do that...second the running lights are just that and from my perspective both will be mostly daylight cruising and not night time passages especially in your case of the ICW... you will be anchored at night...That is a great place for a kerosene anchor light..no current draw...I know that cloudy days exist that will not alow charging but for the demands I have described for 150.00 you can get enough trickle charge to keep it up...Remember we are talking Minimalist here..dont tell me ya but what if..so and so...what ifs arnt all covered by the minimalist...and hard to cover all by the mega yacht...
A minimalist is not going top have a windless...so if your health in your situation does not give you the ability to pull up 35lb of anchor and chain off the bottom then I would say you are diverging away from the minimalist by necessity and realistically might as well have all the electric goodies.. because you will most likely need to run some form of battrie charger...This could be the minimalist equivalent of the Honda 2000 but Im not going to open that can of worms again...Point is minimalist is hand and back power low amp demands period..
Your chosen cruising waters will dictate your rode and chain..enough said..

I love the last ones...Entertainment...Food ...Living expenses....

This is why I could never be a minimalist...I am a self indulgent sap...I love a good restaurant and bar seen...I could not cruse without it...Not daily mind you but two or thee times per week..I some day want to at least cross one ocean and my cruising goal is to work 6 months cruse six months ( Im and excavation contractor and tired of working in the mud and cold..:) then move the boat from one cruising ground to another every year...But Back to your question..I have one question for you...How much do you spend on entertainment now...I believe it will be the same if not more while cruising...I know it will be for us...But you can and my have to pare down to be solvent and not go broke...only you know that number..;)

The real minimalist will be less into hoopla and more into secluded solitude and meager bar and food bills period...I put away 6 to 12 beers a day while on the boat that has to be figured in...or it ain't cruising its work..;) I could not be a minimalist and wont try to be..I could have done it when I was 17 to say 21 but not now...I want it all...and will work it out untill I can have it all... My current boat does pretty much have it all but only ...in the harbor in the dark in the fog..;) If I want to cross that ocean I will need a different one....

Hope this helps...And Keep us informed of your plans and journey...God Bless
 
#35 ·
Free...at least for the USA...the coastal cruising life down island on the East Coast and the West Coast cruise down to Baha and beyond epitomize the cruising 80% of cruisers will do.
The biggest difference is of course the sturdiness of the boat required...but you are right about MOST folks needing discussion of things other than life rafts and sextants for THEIR cruising plans. On reflection, it seems that much of this entire site is dedicated to in depth discussions of the individual decisions that must be made on anchors and rodes and batteries and (dare I say it?:D) solar power etc.
I'm not sure one thread has any hope of covering this topic without going off in a zillion different directions.
 
#36 ·
I'm not sure one thread has any hope of covering this topic without going off in a zillion different directions.
I think you are right. Just the difference between an east coast coastal cruise and a west coast coastal cruise is significant. The challenge (if frugality is the most important thing) is to define where the cruising will happen and to limit yourself to the gear and boat that facilitates that cruise.

One could do the ICW in a canoe (and it has been done) but the west coast would be a little more difficult. You could paddle north (from Seattle) to Alaska in a Kayak (and it has been done) but going south would be much more challenging. Defining the objective is critical.
 
#37 ·
This is an interesting thread, and one that I would like to participate in but I don't have time this morning. The only thing that I do want to say, is that it is crazy to include boats like Cape Dory 25, Pearson Ariel, Triton, and Bristol 29.9. Have any of you ever actually sailed these boats?. These are not good seaboats. They are not even good sailing designs. Frankly, a J-24 is a far more seaworthy, better engineered design and tracks better than a Pearson Ariel. Sheez guys! What are you thinking?

I see these kneejerk suggestions but dog gone it folks, these boats fail on some of the most basic categories; stability, storage, heavy air sailing ability, strength, and downflooding. Sure you can modify these turkeys to get them to a level where with a lot of luck, pluck and skill you can take them distance cruising, but with all of the better choices out there, why do these keep showing up?

Respectfully,
Jeff
 
#56 ·
The only thing that I do want to say, is that it is crazy to include boats like Cape Dory 25, Pearson Ariel, Triton, and Bristol 29.9. Have any of you ever actually sailed these boats?. These are not good seaboats. They are not even good sailing designs..... but with all of the better choices out there, why do these keep showing up?

Respectfully,
Jeff
Jeff...maybe one reason is that John Neal's Mahina list includes ALL the CD's and ALL the Bristols...(no mention of any Pearsons below 35' though!:D)
 
#38 ·
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
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