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  #41  
Old 07-29-2008
MarshaandBillyandMark
 
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My husband and I were sold on the Jordan Series Drogue, but now that we’ve done our homework we decided to purchase a heavy-duty parachute anchor. After reading the Coast Guard Report and Series website, my husband and I were under the impression the Jordan Series Drogue was Coast Guard Approved. But according to the sea anchor manufacturers this is not true. So we contacted Donald Jordan and he agreed that his drogue was not Coast Guard approved. Then we read how the series drogue test was flawed because it compared drift cone anchors to the series drogue and not a parachute sea anchor. I’ve seen Lin and Larry Pardeys’ Storm Tactics video and Zack Smith’s video on parachute type sea anchors and it seems a lot easier to handle than the series drogue. Besides, our concern is a wave crashing into the cockpit and breaking the companionway door.
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  #42  
Old 07-29-2008
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AFAIK, the USCG doesn't approve any sea anchors or drogues whatsoever. The loads a sea anchor will put on a boat are far greater than those generated by a JSD. Also, experiential data has shown that the risk of being pooped while using a JSD is minimal.

I hope you reinforce what ever hardpoints you plan on using for your parachute anchor.


BTW, from another post I wrote.

Quote:
Much of Jordan's work was done because of the Fastnet disaster. That was what prompted Jordan to design the series drogue in the first place. He also worked very closely with the USCG in the development and testing of the JSD. While the USCG doesn't approve the JSD, it certainly seems, from the document on Jordan's site, to advocate the use of them.

If you read the USCG report, the report's abstract says:

Quote:
Model and full-scale tests were conducted to investigate the use of drogues to prevent breaking wave capsizing of sailing yachts. A mathematical model was developed which simulates the motion of a boat and drogue in regular waves and in a breaking wave strike. A series drogue is recommended for optimum performance based on the results of this study. Design information for both series and conventional drogues is presented.
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Last edited by sailingdog; 07-30-2008 at 05:07 PM.
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  #43  
Old 07-30-2008
MarshaandBillyandMark
 
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Para-anchor & Series Drogue

My husband seems to disagree with you and he’s a reading fanatic: First, the USCG has approved small sea anchors for lifeboats, but not for the larger boats. According to Earl Hinz, the Jordan Series drogue is a stern stopping drogue instead of a speed-limiting drogue like all the others. The series drogue places far greater loads on a boat than any other drogue. That’s why Donald Jordon recommends reinforcing the hard points on the boat for his drogue. To be honest, it’s the stopping aspect of the series drogue that concerns us, since we don’t own a canoe stern boat that is capable of taking a breaking wave. Even if the odds are minimal of being pooped.

The Coast Guard does not advocate the use of the series drogue, despite what Jordon’s website claims: “USCG designed heavy weather tactic—series drogue” and the “U.S. Coast Guard thinks the series drogue is better than a para-anchor in storms.”

Here’s what the USCG states, “…the findings in the test report are presented as the opinions of the researchers and not the opinion of the Coast Guard.” And ”The Coast Guard provided a convenient, low-cost test platform…” for the series drogue. It is clear the Coast Guard does not advocate the use of the series drogue or the para-anchor. Drag device tactics are simply a matter of opinion and there’s no evidence to support one tactic over the other.
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  #44  
Old 07-30-2008
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Actually AFAIK, Hinz is wrong. The Jordan Series drogue is a speed limiting drogue, not a stern stopping drogue. From the different testimonials I've read, it limits the speeds to about the same as a GaleRider drogue would.

Two examples from the Drag Device Database:

Quote:
D/M-20: Vessel name Cinnabar, cutter designed by Robert Perry, LOA 40' x 11 Tons. Cinnabar towed a 42” dia. Galerider drogue in a gale about 75 nm NE of Bermuda in 40-knot winds and 18' seas, the owner reporting satisfactory results. The drogue was deployed to stabilize the attitude of the yacht in a wind-current conflict situation, exacerbated by severe --60-knot -- squalls. Microburst activity can't be ruled out. The drogue was deployed for 12 hours, the yacht reported to have traveled about 12 nm in that time.

D/M-22: Vessel name Glenyon, CSY cutter, LOA 44’ x 23 Tons. Glenyon was a participant in the 1998 Caribbean 1500and towed a 42” Galerider drogue when she ran into tropical storm Mitch, her owner reporting satisfactory results. The drogue was deployed for 24 hours, the yacht traveling 25 nm in that time.
and a comparable example from the JSD website:

Quote:
Rough Trip to Iceland

Yachting Monthly Retired couple with 3 years of experience cruising their Victory 40 ketch. Voyage from England to Iceland in late May. Small depression had formed South of Iceland. By morning the wind had picked up to 45 knots and veered about 45 degrees, which produced quite confused seas. Within an hour it had increased to 55 knots gusting to 70, and occasional seas were breaking into the cockpit. At last, we thought, a chance to tryout our series drogue and see if the long hours making it had been well spent.


The effect was immediate: from hurtling full tilt down the face of the huge waves, we slowed down and the waves passed under us. The motion on deck became comfortable and safe. A sight I shall never forget was the drogue warp, stretched bar taut, disappearing into the cliff of water as the next wave approached.


Lessons learned: Series drogues do work. Once deployed, the motion of the boat became safe and we were no longer surfing down the waves with little control. During the seven hours it was trailed we drifted 5 miles through the water, 10.5 miles over the ground according to the G.P.S.
The drift rate for the GaleRider seems to be about 1 knot or so...as does the drift rate for the Jordan Series Drogue. If Hinz hasn't gotten that point right, what else is he wrong about??


Yes, the JSD may generate higher loads than a different drogue design, but it won't generate anything close to the loads that a parachute-type sea anchor will. The bigger problem is shock loading. With a parachute type sea anchor, the parachute can collapse and suddenly re-deploy. This generates massive shock loads, especially when compared to the gradual and progressive loading that occurs with a JSD. Models and tests show that many of the parachute sea anchors are subject to doing exactly that—collapsing as the water shifts and then suddenly re-opening and loading the lines.

Further, I'd cite the following JSD use example:

Quote:
32 ft. trimaran competing in a feeder race to Europe 1 STAR
"A Busy Month For The U.S. Coast Guard's Vessel Rescue Net Work"
  • Port hull forward cross member had snapped- 700 miles southeast of Nantucket-gale force winds, 20 ft. seas- mast blown down - hulls smashing together.
  • Set series drogue and activated EPIRB - readied life raft and donned survival suit.
  • Skipper David Dietz: "When something so out of control as this happens there isn't much else you can do other then having a good meal and listening to some Jimmy Buffet" which is what he did.
  • A cargo ship was directed to him by a Coast Guard aircraft and he was picked up about 5 hours later and taken to Norway.
  • Note that he reported no further damage to the boat after the drogue was deployed.
I seriously doubt that the captain and crew of that boat would have survived using a Parachute-type sea anchor.

Be aware, the Drag Device Database website and book have a vested interest in parachute-type sea anchors.
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  #45  
Old 07-30-2008
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The two devices, sea anchor and drogue, accomplish fundamentally different objectives. Either one, properly deployed in conditions of necessity, should be under a heavy load but should not be under the shock loading I believe that Dog implies. With either there is going to be a tensioning and slacking of the rode but only relative to the heavy strain the rode will be under in either case. The real enemy in either case will be chafe, again due to the strain.

The two devices handle the prospect of heaving-to in different manners and each may be more or less suitable for different designs of boats. Indeed the very definitions of the devices give a clue to their possible usage and appropriateness. The drogue is essentially a running before the seas device while the sea anchor is essentially a heaving-to device.

It seems that great strides have been made in the design and deployment of the parachute version of the sea anchor to where collapsing is no longer the issue it was in early designs made from military surplus parachutes. It's strongly advisable to follow any manufacturers recommendations regarding bridles, deck hardware, weights and swivels with any of the devices chosen.
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  #46  
Old 07-31-2008
MarshaandBillyandMark
 
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Smile Para-anchor & Series drogue

Wow, you have a lot to say Sailingdog. I’m afraid my husband and I still don’t agree with you. It seems every drag device manufacturer has testimonials that say how great their product performs. So why is Donald Jordon an exception?

Drogue speed reduction with the Series drogue is not the same as the Galerider as you suggest. Steve and Linda Dashew and Zack Smith conducted a drogue test on the Dashew’s trawler, Windhorse. Jordon’s series drogue slowed the Dashew’s boat down by 3-kn and the Galerider and Fiorentino drogue slowed his boat down by 1.5 and 1.4 kn, respectively. This demonstrates how the series drogue has twice the holding power and twice the amount of load on a boat. Kimball Livingston in his Sail Magazine article basically said the same thing.

Fiorentino recommends weight placement to eliminate shock loading for the para-anchor and the Series drogue.

You keep using the term “parachute sea anchor,” but this is incorrect. There were no parachute sea anchors tested in the Jordan Coast Guard Report. Instead, Jordan compared his drogue to cone drift anchors. The Figure 8 photo in the Coast Guard Report is clearly not a parachute sea anchor.

What’s even more frustrating to us is how Jordan interchangeably uses drogue to define bow and stern deployment of a drag device.

You warn us to beware of the Drag Device Database website and book, but how do you know they have a vested interest in parachute sea anchors?

In the end, everyone is trying to sell something. We are still sold on the para-anchor.
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  #47  
Old 07-31-2008
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Good advice Sailaway21.
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  #48  
Old 07-31-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
Indeed the very definitions of the devices give a clue to their possible usage and appropriateness. The drogue is essentially a running before the seas device while the sea anchor is essentially a heaving-to device.
I agree, good advice Sway.

Whilst it may be too simplistic, I believe it to be no coincidence that one is called an anchor and the other a drogue. The two are by definition different.

It was a long time ago but I clearly recall reading an article in PBO magazine (UK) and the one statement that stuck in my mind in the series drogue test was that "streaming a series drogue had the feeling of being attached to a bungie cord". To me that strongly implies that the ride is very comfortable and the boat is not "anchored"

I've never used either so JMO

Andre
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  #49  
Old 07-31-2008
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Maybe, because they sell the parachute type sea anchors off of their website. If they had links to the all of the different drag devices, I would take them a bit more seriously, but they only link to a specific parachute sea-anchor manufacturer. That indicates, to me at least, a financial interest in the success of at least that brand.
Quote:
You warn us to beware of the Drag Device Database website and book, but how do you know they have a vested interest in parachute sea anchors?
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

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  #50  
Old 07-31-2008
MarshaandBillyandMark
 
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Drag Device Writers

It’s hard to believe what you are saying is true Sailingdog. I would think that writers and authors have some kind of ethical and moral obligation to the community to be impartial. Even if they have a financial interest with a manufacturer.

On the other hand, my husband seems to think more like you in this area. He has read the whole Drag Device Data Book and thinks it a little suspicious how the majority of the testimonials in the book are about the ParaTech brand sea anchor. We are not buying that brand anyways.

I definitely have to agree that it is not cool how Victor Shane does not link the other drag device sites as you pointed out. It just feels wrong.

I hate to switch subjects, but can you recommend a good website for used boating equipment? My husband and I are trying to gear up our Manta 42 and it’s getting expensive.
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