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  #11  
Old 11-09-2008
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or do the next pirates bring more guns more people more ammo because who wouldnt bring a gun to a gun fight..do the next pirates start shooting first...

I cant begin to imagine what these people went through a those moments of sheer terror...

I struggle with this ethically....protection for your family or simply elevating the fight..

The stat remains those countries with the most guns in society (legit or not) have the highest rates of gun death..wouldnt that same stat apply in the sailing community..

My sympathies to these people who were simply out enjoying their dream...
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  #12  
Old 11-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sab30 View Post
or do the next pirates bring more guns more people more ammo because who wouldnt bring a gun to a gun fight..do the next pirates start shooting first...

I cant begin to imagine what these people went through a those moments of sheer terror...

I struggle with this ethically....protection for your family or simply elevating the fight..

The stat remains those countries with the most guns in society (legit or not) have the highest rates of gun death..wouldnt that same stat apply in the sailing community..

My sympathies to these people who were simply out enjoying their dream...
Well, at the moment we have no way to totally eliminate all firearms from the earth. Take that as a fact. Also take as a fact presently there are some bad people out there. I don't mean bad as in cheating on taxes and such but bad is in taking what YOU have and have NO qualms about hurting/killing not to mention having a little FUN doing it. Are you still with me and can you imagine that? Now, assuming these people do exist and it can happen to you, what do you propose to do about it? Now you cannot push a button to get rid of all the firearms nor can you suddenly eliminate bad people.
Know this if you would, places with the most stringent gun laws have the higher crime rate. Why is this you may ask? Let me help you out for a sec...These bad people who have no qualms hurting you and these bad people being hunters will pick out soft targets. Soft? You know who you are and so do they. And if they KNEW who was unarmed and/or unwilling to defend themselves they would go higher on the target list. No different from the predators in the jungle.
So we as a whole need to not just be aware that these bad/predators/sociopaths actually do exist, no matter what we do we need to take steps to lower ourselves on the targeting criteria scale.

You're at anchor with your wife
and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist/pirate/robber with the intent and ability to hurt you and yours with a huge knife/pistol/RPG comes aboard your boat and locks eyes
with you, screams obscenities, raises
the knife/pistol/shotgun, and charges at you. You are
carrying your own weapon, and you are an expert shot.
You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your
family.

What do you do?

Some peoples answer...


Well, that's not enough information to answer the
question!

Does the man look poor? Or oppressed?

Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire
him to attack?

Could we run away?

What does my wife think?

What about the kids?

Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock
the knife out of his hand?

What does the law say about this situation?

Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind
of message does this send to society and to my
children?

Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?

Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be
content just to wound me?

If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my
family get away while he was stabbing me?

Should I call 911?


An other answer...

Bang Bang , Bang , Pause while remaining behind cover, reevaluate, reload.

There is a joke we have in Barrow about jogging around town. There are polar bears out there around the outskirts of town who actually stalk and hunt people. You cannot outrun a bear however all I need is to be able to outrun you. Sooo if you insist on remaining high on the targeting list theoretically it makes me lower on the same list.

Thanks Buddy,

Jerry
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Last edited by jerryrlitton; 11-09-2008 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 11-09-2008
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Can someone point me to a site with an incident where an armed boater (maybe a shotgun) was set upon by armed bad guys and the boater was killed?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alaskaboy View Post
Can someone point me to a site with an incident where an armed boater (maybe a shotgun) was set upon by armed bad guys and the boater was killed?
Peter Blake comes to mind.
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Old 11-09-2008
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AlaskaBoy—

Unfortunately, there are several well-documented cases where sailors were armed and killed by armed bad guys.

There are some cases where being armed would have saved sailors, and others where they would simply have been killed out of hand... it is pretty situation specific.
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  #16  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sab30 View Post
or do the next pirates bring more guns more people more ammo because who wouldnt bring a gun to a gun fight..do the next pirates start shooting first...

I cant begin to imagine what these people went through a those moments of sheer terror...

I struggle with this ethically....protection for your family or simply elevating the fight..

The stat remains those countries with the most guns in society (legit or not) have the highest rates of gun death..wouldnt that same stat apply in the sailing community..
My sympathies to these people who were simply out enjoying their dream...
Wow, what a surprise. My question then is; What about the countries that have outlawed guns? Shouldn't they then have NO deaths by guns/weapons, No crimes involving guns/weapons, No police killed by guns/weapons? Do you really think that someone who is planning on robbing you is so law-abiding that they'll leave their unregistered/stolen/illegal firearm at home? When they do bring their gun, do you think that they'll consider the consequences before they pull the trigger? If the playing field were even for everyone (ie no guns, no swords, no knives, no bombs, etc), the world would obviously be a better place. Sadly, these things do exist.

It saddens me to think that I may, inadvertently, put my life in danger by NOT carrying a firearm. The really sad reality is not all societies value human life or have the police capability to investigate those that don't.

Again, the best answer is to avoid (or limit your contact with) societies/countries that pose a threat to your live. Hopefully, when the governments of these countries see a decline in their tourism they'll take action. Otherwise...enter at your own risk, whether you're armed or not!

The bell tolls for each sailor who dies...especially those murdered.

Skipper, J/36 "Zero Tolerance"
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  #17  
Old 11-09-2008
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Better yet, who the hell wants to sail somewhere you have to carry arms? Cruising is about pleasure and self sufficiency, not gun fights. There are hundreds of civilized places to cruise...
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Old 11-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandyIsland View Post
Better yet, who the hell wants to sail somewhere you have to carry arms? Cruising is about pleasure and self sufficiency, not gun fights. There are hundreds of civilized places to cruise...
Great idea. Where is this utopia where never is violent crime? Refer to post #12...(I think I just went a bit lower on the targeting list.)
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  #19  
Old 11-09-2008
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Therapy...we are seeing different times of editing on the SSCA site...but given the exact 5 hour difference I am guessing you are set to GMT and I am on Eastern standard time! Note that there has been a further edit now adjusting the last paragraph and more cruisers including one from the marina in VZ have weighed in.

JerryLitton...the quote from my post makes it look like those are MY words. Just to keep the record straight...those are NOT my words...but those of the cruiser reporting the incident. Furthermore...they do NOT reflect my opinions on the matter!!

I'm going to refrain from the whole guns/no guns arguments which is where I predicted this thread would quickly go.
Aside from additional details...one point of interest for me will be HOW the gov't of VZ responds to the killings of their citizens with firearms aboard a foreign yacht anchored in VZ waters in violation of their customs procedures. Hopefully...they will consider it frontier justice and leave them alone in their grief.

Those thinking about cruising VZ should navigate to this noonsite page and read of all the incidents in the last year. This is no place for peaceful cruising. http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Venezuela
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Here are a couple of storied I googled from the internet a few minutes ago. Seems to be in the same area of the world:

"Boarding by Pirates off NE Coast of Venezuela
Topic: Piracy Reports 2008
Countries: Venezuela
At approximately 1500hrs (local time) on Tuesday 1st July 2008, the sailing yacht "Naxos" was boarded by six heavily armed pirates NNE of Cacao off the northern coast of Venezuela (10 46.41N 62 16.80W).

None of the three crew aboard the yacht were physically injured during the encounter, however, the yacht was ransacked and everything of any value was stolen. The pirates took cash, jewellery, computers, radios, satellite phone, cell phones, EPIRB, outboard motor, AC unit, food, clothing, bedding and other items.

"Naxos" was approached from behind by a very fast pirogue-type open fishing boat. Although the boat was not far from a harbour, the attackers came alongside and asked for water. When the captain of "Naxos" attempted to pass a water container to them, he was immediately facing 6 guns (5 x 9mm automatic pistols and 1 x semi automatic rifle).

The attackers made no effort to hide either their own identity or that of the attacking vessel. The attacking vessel was an open pirogue-type fishing boat with four Yamaha 75hp outboard motors. The hull was mostly dark green with a wide turquoise stripe over and a narrow red stripe separating the green from the turquoise. The boat displays the name "Amguna" on the stern and "Moss" on the bow.

Please make this information available to all cruisers so that they can make informed decisions about whether or not they cruise in this area. I for one will be giving the coast of Venezuela a very large offing in the future.

Peter Scott
Captain S.V. Naxos"

Another Venezuela story from Dec 2005:
Armed Caribbean pirates loot B.C. surgeon's yacht
Maurice Bridge ,* Vancouver Sun
Published:*Tuesday, December 13, 2005
For Steve McVicar, the worst part of lying in the cockpit of his sailboat with a sawed-off shotgun pressed to his head by a Venezuelan pirate was how casually his life could end.
"It's just a horrible feeling that your life is so frail, hanging by a thread, when somebody has a gun on you," the 50-year-old Trail orthopedic surgeon said Monday in a telephone interview. "You could be gone instantly."
McVicar and his companions, another B.C. doctor and his wife, had just set off on a two-week Caribbean cruise off the coast of Venezuela early last month when pirates turned their holiday into 30 minutes of helplessness and terror.
The attack came the first evening out of Puerto la Cruz on the coast of Venezuela. McVicar had just spent two weeks working on the boat, and when his friends arrived, they headed 11 kilometres offshore to Isla Borracha and anchored for the night.
There was no reason to expect trouble. McVicar has kept Alioth, his 13-metre French-built steel-hulled ketch, in the Caribbean since 1999, and knows its waters well, heading down for two-week trips three or four times a year. Both the Venezuelan coast guard and the national guard patrol the waters around Puerto la Cruz, and the bay they anchored in was reputed to be safe.
Early in the evening, the three were lounging in the cockpit, watching a DVD. McVicar, drowsy from a cold remedy, was not keeping a watch, and the sound of the movie muffled the noise of the outboard as a six- metre open fishing boat approached.
"All of a sudden, five armed men came on board and one put a shotgun right to my head," he recalled. "The others had pistols and a machete, and they ended up tying us up and proceeded to loot the boat."
The Canadians lay on the deck, bound hand and foot, with one pirate holding the shotgun on them while his companions ransacked the main cabin.
Nearby in the darkened aft cabin, McVicar's own shotgun and a handful of shells -- a potential defence now turned appalling danger -- lay in plain sight on his bunk. Mercifully, the pirates never looked there.
"I shudder to think if they'd seen it," he said.
He remembered all too well the fate of world-class yachtsman Sir Peter Blake, who grabbed his gun to challenge pirates who boarded his boat in the Amazon River in 2001 and was shot dead on the spot.
"You think, if only I had my gun up on deck, I could have loaded it, which I usually do, but what if I fired? What if they had a machine gun and fired back? You'd wind up having a firefight.
"That's what was going through my brain, so I offered no resistance, so it's just as well I didn't have my gun up there."
While he lay helpless, he could see down into the main cabin, where the pirates were pawing through his gear and taking what they fancied -- satellite phone, VHF radio, expensive sailing clothing, electronic instruments and more.
"The sad part was, I had an empty knapsack, and I had about $10,000 in a zipped pocket," he said.
"I usually hide that on the boat somewhere, but I never got around to it and they used the knapsack to put stuff in, not knowing the cash was there, so it was really disheartening to see them take the knapsack."
There was worse to come. The pirates then took the woman down into the boat and molested her, taking her clothes off.
McVicar and the woman's husband were afraid she might be taken ashore and raped, but she was left on the boat.
After 30 minutes, the pirates left, and after 10 minutes of twisting and squirming, the captives freed themselves. They contacted a French yacht lying at anchor about 300 metres away, which came to see if they were alright."

Most of the other stories include a lot of words like heavily-armed pirates, speedboats, automatic weapons, fast-moving skiffs, and such. I'm not one, and I don't think many on this list are, one bit squeamish about putting a well deserved round or two in a pirate ... but carrying much more than a shotgun doesn't seem likely in most areas of the world. Really, to come out on top of these guys, a deck and/or aft mounted 50 Cal is needed. This is unlikely to be allowed in these trouble areas like Venezuela, Somalia, Malaysia, even St. Vincent and the Grenadines, including St. Lucia. A shotgun might protect you in the latter 3 though, especially the St. Lucia rape attack. Someone mentioned not traveling to these areas. Unfortunately, that makes the most sense much of the time. I'm not a world traveler yet, but, I will in the future either be ready to submit immediately or fight to the end. As far as I'm concerned, once you piss-off someone by resisting them in anyway, you're committed to your course of action. Just like a grizzly bear attack - you either pull up in the fetal position and protect your neck or you aim straight and true and kill his ass. Sorry this is so long.
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