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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2008
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This dog don't hide...
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this POST.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2008
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Don't underestimate the benefits of fresh water heads. We had two Vacuflush heads on our last boat, and they were awesome. They use very little water, lessened the number of through hulls needs, and no seawater smell. Plus, because they used so little water, it actually made our "apparent" holding tank capacity much larger. I'm missing all of that in a big way now that I'm back to traditional saltwater heads. For the moment. I think it best to have one manual seawater head on the boat in case everything goes wrong electrically/water capacity-wise, but a fresh water head actually is a very nice thing to have in terms of creature comfort. As with so many things, if you have never had one, careful before you judge. And if you don't want one, never charter a boat with one with the Admiral; you may have no choice when you return.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2008
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Valiente Valiente is offline
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It's not the freshwater head I object to, it's the need to make freshwater for the head. As I said, if you have surplus freshwater from a raincatcher or a watermaker or the fact that you've got the complimentary tap at the Port Captain's personal dock, that's great. I would also say that even an occasional fresh water flush (or a vinegar flush or some other kind of "treatment") is going to do any shipboard plumbing a world of good by killing critters in the works.

But the thread of useability grows thin indeed if this is the case in my view, particularly if you have the usual flat bottomed hull and maybe 50 gallons of water tankage to play with, and if you have to have a series of electrical pumps to make it work. I have 200 gallons of water tankage, and if I throw a small watermaker in there, I might be one of "those guys" who can use a diverter valve to have a freshwater head, if only to cycle through "older" water in designated tanks.

Everything on our boat, with the exception of certain navigational and communications gear, is moving in the opposite direction of this particular example of modern comfortable cruising. I have pressure water, but I am going to a second set of taps for foot- pump water. I have a wired hot water heater, but I am plumbing it into the heat exchanger so that we will have "bath day" on "motoring day". I have A/C, but because the amperage to start it exceeds what I can make with inverter and Honda 2000 (well, it might kick, but that remains to be seen), I will generally not use it. The windlass is manual first, with electric backup, and so on. A huge Patay manual bilge pump has its pickup lower than the electrical Rule bilge pump, and so on.

All this isn't a Luddite impulse, but an attempt to have more than one way to accomplish onboard tasks, particularly ones that involve electricity. The reason for this is that without exception, cruising narratives and boat delivery stories tell of the gadgets that didn't work due to lack of robustness in design, the harshness of the saltwater environment, or because the wiring was just too damn complex to service in a pitching boat.

If it is a matter of throwing a few switches and turning a few valves to turn our passagemaker from a muscle-operated workshop to a gently humming den when the appropriate power and water manifest at a dock, why wouldn't we? It seems quite strongly to me that I can avoid a world of maintenance hurt thereby at very little "inconvenience".
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2008
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Valiente—

I see you're planning for the worst case—no electricity, but also giving yourself the option for the best—decadent sybaritic cruising.
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New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this POST.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2008
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Valiente Valiente is offline
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I see you've discovered my evil plan...Yes, that is essentially it. I want to run a fridge and radar and a laptop and SSB, with maybe a DVD in the evening if the boy's been good.

In order to accomplish that, I need X amount of amp/hours in battery storage. If I want to avoid running the diesel just to run the alternator, I need 4X aH so that solar and wind alone keep me topped up.

This means old-fashioned, bulletproof muscle-powered pumps, levers and so on, in combination with low-draw LEDs, and laptops and entertainment devices that are charged...literally...while the sun shines so I don't draw down the banks during still nights at anchor.

That way, if I need to run RADAR and AIS and maybe SSB 24/7 (or if I really want more ice cubes...), I can do so without necessarily needing to run the engine.

I am happy to run the engine when moving offshore to discharge, or when motorsailing or when going into a reef-strewn lagoon, and I am happy to store the amps made then.

But running a "muscle boat" means I can live and cruise without a lot of extras, and I can use my fuel efficiently and without pissing off the entire anchorage.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2008
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sailingdog sailingdog is offline
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Sounds good to me... keep up the good work...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente View Post
I see you've discovered my evil plan...Yes, that is essentially it. I want to run a fridge and radar and a laptop and SSB, with maybe a DVD in the evening if the boy's been good.

In order to accomplish that, I need X amount of amp/hours in battery storage. If I want to avoid running the diesel just to run the alternator, I need 4X aH so that solar and wind alone keep me topped up.

This means old-fashioned, bulletproof muscle-powered pumps, levers and so on, in combination with low-draw LEDs, and laptops and entertainment devices that are charged...literally...while the sun shines so I don't draw down the banks during still nights at anchor.

That way, if I need to run RADAR and AIS and maybe SSB 24/7 (or if I really want more ice cubes...), I can do so without necessarily needing to run the engine.

I am happy to run the engine when moving offshore to discharge, or when motorsailing or when going into a reef-strewn lagoon, and I am happy to store the amps made then.

But running a "muscle boat" means I can live and cruise without a lot of extras, and I can use my fuel efficiently and without pissing off the entire anchorage.
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Sailingdog

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this POST.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2008
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Valiente Valiente is offline
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Merry Christmas to all, and I hope you in the "boatless zone" get a nice big book of sailing stories to read during the freeze-thaw cycle of the ice cubes for your beverages of choice.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2008
genieskip genieskip is offline
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I couldn't agree with Valiente more. That's why I just junked my heads, pumps, valves, holding tanks etc and installed a couple of composting toilets. Less smell than I had before and incomparable simplicity with the only moving part a bottle for the "liquid" to be taken on deck and poured overboard when offshore. And the "found" space of two 20 gallon holding tanks moved to the dumpster. Simple is best when offshore!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2008
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Valiente Valiente is offline
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This would seem like heresy to some, but on my old 33 footer Lake Ontario racer-cruiser, I junked the old water tanks (people just drink from bottles and wash their hands in a bucket of lake water) and exchanged the 15 gallon Monel gas tank for an 11 gallon Tempo tank.

These changes took some weight out of the boat and simplified things on what is essentially used as a big daysailer. The loss of "range" in terms of the engine is irrelevant, given that I can carry two jerrycans if I want to motor down to the end of the lake, but I invariably sail and just use the engine arriving and leaving in harbours.

I left the 30 gallon holding tank in place, mind you!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2008
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back to fresh water flushing.

I'm thinking of adding 2 tanks for fresh water flush, one for each head. I can plumb a diverter to the main scuppers to feed the tanks. These tanks would be dedicated to flush only so if they pick up a bit of deck doo that's OK.

What about shower water? Could I plumb the shower pump to this tank also? It would probably overflow but that's OK, assuming I have a good overflow/vent line. I wonder what the soapy water would do sitting in that tank?
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