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Production Boats and the Limits

792K views 5K replies 235 participants last post by  Jeff_H 
#1 · (Edited)
We've seen the age-old debate regarding what's REALLY a blue-water boat. And that's cool and everything - but it seems to me that there is a tangible middle ground between coastal cruising and true blue water sailing. Furthermore, in my blissful ignorance, I'd say that quite a few sailors inhabit this aether plain.

Sure you can buy a Hinckley or a Brewer or a Tayana or Cheoy Lee and take them wherever the hell you wanna. But where exactly can you take a Catalina, a Hunter, an Irwin, a Beneteau, a Jenneau, even.....yes....even.....a MacGregor (dum-dum-duuuuum).

Do you make sure you never leave sight of land in these boats? Do you keep land 50 miles away? 100 miles? Do you run from a 40 knot squall? Do you live in morbid fear of encountering a freak 50 knot storm - where you're cool with it in an S&S design from 1927? Can you "outrun" such storms in these "new fangled keel" boats - where in a full-keel Formasa you just heave to and ride it out with a Dark-n-Stormy and a tiparillo in your hand?

Giu had a good write up comparing Beneteaus/Catalinas/Hunters from a "sailability" standpoint. And CD has had some great input regarding the capabilities of various production boats. And we've seen the exhaustive list of blue water boats with great input from Cam and Jeff_H.

Furthermore, Val and others have pointed out the critical elements in any heavy weather situation is actually the skipper and crew. And this makes a heap of sense too.

So, the question I'd like to pose to the sailing world is this: From the standpoint of dealing with the outer limits of "coastal" cruising - what are the best production boats and why?
 
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#427 ·
Paulo, if you hadn’t noticed, we are carrying a string of crab pots on the boat. Yes, we had a reef tucked in. Kind of hate to lose a couple hundred dollars of crabbing gear just for a photo op. We are all proud of our kids. I have some photos at home of a four and five year old doing the same thing.
 
#430 ·
Smacky,
Take ownership dude, you typed it, it's yours :)
I've eyeballed Gulfstars, Pearsons, Endeavors, and of course Irwins in my whirlwind tour of mid 80's cruisers before settling on my Irwin as the apex of the price/boat curve (that week, of the samples I saw).

In my un-informed, un-trained, but well read and very observant mind all of this 'class' of boats they generally are built to the same scantlings, thickness of hull, backing plates - all that stuff.
Year of build matters because all of the yards ran into money troubles and tried to cut corners at one point or another. None of them shut down production at the height of quality.
My major difference:
The gulfstar and the pearsons both used particle board for the furniture - and open edged particle board at that.
At the boat show last week I saw IP's with deck pulls in the sole - open edged plywood (not trimmed with teak). Granted you can't see it until you pull the access up.
My Irwin has even those edges trimmed in.
If you go there, where else is it fugly?
 
#431 · (Edited)
Smacky,
Take ownership dude, you typed it, it's yours :)
I've eyeballed Gulfstars, Pearsons, Endeavors, and of course Irwins in my whirlwind tour of mid 80's cruisers before settling on my Irwin as the apex of the price/boat curve (that week, of the samples I saw).

In my un-informed, un-trained, but well read and very observant mind all of this 'class' of boats they generally are built to the same scantlings, thickness of hull, backing plates - all that stuff.
Year of build matters because all of the yards ran into money troubles and tried to cut corners at one point or another. None of them shut down production at the height of quality.
My major difference:
The gulfstar and the pearsons both used particle board for the furniture - and open edged particle board at that.
At the boat show last week I saw IP's with deck pulls in the sole - open edged plywood (not trimmed with teak). Granted you can't see it until you pull the access up.
My Irwin has even those edges trimmed in.
If you go there, where else is it fugly?
Good point. Now that I own my pimpin' Hunter 40, I'm crawling through every nook and cranny to see what's what. Holy crap do I have a lot to learn about this yacht! But, honestly, thus far it seems to be very well put together in terms of the items you list above.

The only truly crap item I've come across thus far are the counter tops for the shelves in the cabins. Particle board - which has absorbed moisture from condensation on the sidewalls with predictable results. That said, I LOVE the aft cabin. The boys and I just spend the weekend on her and it was seriously awesome! I'm all about the centerline queen.

Yes, we're in love...but I'm in a panic trying to learn everything I can about diesel generators and engines, batteries and electrical components, and instruments.

Sigh.

I'll do a write up soon about "How We Got to Hunter" - detailing everything I read/heard on forums about what to look for in a "real boat" - and why I ignored a lot of it.
 
#433 ·
I'll do a write up soon about "How We Got to Hunter" - detailing everything I read/heard on forums about what to look for in a "real boat" - and why I ignored a lot of it.
smackdaddy

I look forward to your story on your pick and why a Hunter.

I have conversations in my marina all the time about why i have Beneteau VS a older "is better" vintage sailboat. I'm a firm believer that french boats are better engineered and better built than most boats of similar vintage. Once people get over the anti-french mentality and i show them the engineering principles involved VS some of the older ideas they start to grasp some things are truly better. The french builders have years and years of experience building boats and the money at there disposal for research.

I'm not saying that the Beneteau is a "best built" voyager. I can think of many newer boats that are better built. (In other countries as well) I am curious though how you came to the conclusion to by a Hunter besides price.
I have gone over the new Hunter 40 extensively and have found it to be years behind the rest of the production boats currently being fielded. (engineering wise) That being said i don't know how yours was built; good or bad.
I think most production boats are built fine for their intended use. I don't think i would want to cross an Ocean in a new Hunter.

I would love to read some HONEST opinions from the designer/architects of the sailboat world. I've read many of Bob Perry's articles/reviews of older boats; these are more honest than most. Have you ever noticed that boat reviews are just gushing about a new boat? They never really address all the issues with some of the new boats. I guess when the boat ads and charter companies are paying your bills your not really going to pi$$ on their wheaties.
 
#434 ·
.....Have you ever noticed that boat reviews are just gushing about a new boat? They never really address all the issues with some of the new boats. I guess when the boat ads and charter companies are paying your bills your not really going to pi$$ on their wheaties.
Too true.. the dealers who provided the boats get to proof the articles.. negatives are weeded out, even if they aren't serious, or even if they are the writers' opinion/preference.

That's the nice thing about Practical Sailor, no advertisers' pressures.

By the same token most owners' reviews such as those posted here on SN are rarely truly objective.. I think we all rationalize or ignore things about our own boats that we know aren't perfect and well thought out, at least as long as we still own her.
 
#436 · (Edited)
bene, here is the link to my write-up on this subject:

TSBY_13_02 : BFSshop.com, is the official home of BFS Gear for Big Freakin Sails!

You'll notice I was very close to buying a mid '80s Bene First 375...but chose the '89 H40 in the end. I'm really happy with the choice.

HOWEVER, if we're talking NEW boats, NO WAY would I buy a Hunter these days. They look seriously goofy, IMUSO.



I would buy a Bene First or Oceanis in the 40-45 range. These new Benes are absolutely awesome boats and look great.





But, like I said, for the '80s boats, I think I got a great boat in the H40...fast, super comfy, easy to sail, very solid.

Let me know what you think.
 
#442 ·
The 37 had a two blade folder not much reverse and walked to port. I thought the 3 blade fixed on the 50 would be better but getting 35000 moving takes time. It also goes to starboard with the lefthand prop.
I'm lucky that my slip is a straight in end slip any crosswind and the bow takes off going out. Coming in is easy, keep the speed up to stay lined up hit the brakes and she walks over to the dock. Going out if there is a crosswind I use a spring line to hold her in place with forward gear. After all other lines are clear I shift to neutral and get some "spring" to help get her moving. Then a big hand full of throttle then back off will get me clear. If the wind is on the bow or aft no problem on the bow I will just walk her out. I haven't officially soloed yet but took a couple friends out and just had them stand by. So I can do it but I have to hustle lol.
I still miss my 37c but the wife and kids love the G50. I'm slowly coming around, needs more sail that's why I knew what the "mule" sail was. Talked to Bob P.and my sailmaker about it and will probably be my
next sail.
Do you miss the quicker more spirited ride of the smaller boat?
 
#443 ·
Do you miss the quicker more spirited ride of the smaller boat?
Honestly, no. I really like the speed and smoothness of the H40. Her sails are freakin' HUGE! She's very responsive - and way easier to sail than the tiller'd C27.

Of course, I've only had her out in 15-20 knots max in Galveston Bay. We'll see how she does in 25-30...but I'm confident in her.
 
#444 ·
smackd love the winch layout on your h40. The interior looks nice as well. Looks fast. When i move your way we'll have to do a head to head. :) Yours a totally different look than the new ones. (i read your blog after posting last time.) I believe you made a good choice.
If i had to pick a new production boat i think i would go with a new Jeanneau 41DS. But, if i have my way and i bail on my present boat i'd like a Southerly 42RST.
Southerly 42RST - Gallery
Aaahhh....the smell of wood.

My buddy wants a gulfstar; i told him to look at this boat instead .......Wauquiez Centurion 42
1986 Wauquiez Centurion 42 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

And hmm...
Jonathan Green tackled the Atlantic -- single-handed

Jonathan Green sailing Jeroboam, his Oceanis 351, not only completed the OSTAR, the Original Single-handed Trans-Atlantic Race, but became the official 2013 IRC Winner Overall of this most prestigious race.
 
#445 · (Edited)
Now that Southerly is a sweet looking ride. Especially when you start getting over 50'. Yowza! And I agree with you, I'd WAY rather have a Wauquiez than a GS.

Also, I like Jenneau, definitely. I just prefer the less stark interior of the Benes.

These boats can go anywhere as long as you don't sail them stupid.

Now come on down and let's race!

(PS - As for Hunters being able to handle passage-making - Sequitur made a believer out of me.)
 
#458 · (Edited)
If you are talking about Aventura IV (an Exploration 45), she is a shallow draft design with twin rudders and a centre board, and (OMG!) a bow thruster...:)
 
#455 ·
We were something like 15 miles north of them when we started hearing the distress calls two missing, etc. We got caught with our full main up and not an easy solution to drop it, so we rode it out. We were hitting 12.6 under main alone, and not surfing down any waves as there were none.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk now Free
 
#460 ·
Regarding the Mac Storm. Well I must say, it was probably the scariest sailing experience that I have had. And, it wasn't just one thing. Big winds? That happens often on lake Michigan. You get used to it. The other 2 big ones I have experienced was cruising, and I got the sails down in plenty of time. Then you just ride it out and be sure not to hit anything. These types of storms are not uncommon on Lake Michigan, but this was a pretty severe one. It seems as all hell is breaking loose, but you just ride it out. No problem.

It was probably the lightning that made it so scary. It was not my watch, but I was summoned on deck. I ran up in my bare feet without even realizing it. 5 hours later after standing on the teak grate behind the helm, I noticed that my feet hurt like crazy.

We just thought it was going to rain. We really had no idea that this kind of weather was approaching. We started to see a bunch of lightning, and the wind picked up to 28 knots or so. That is kind of pushing it with the spinnaker we were flying. After a bit of that, we dropped the chute and unrolled the genoa. We were moving along pretty good.

There were two mistakes we made which were just bad seamanship. First, when we left the dock, the roller furler would not roll all the way up, but rather had a little corner out. We didn't think much of it, and left it. A crew member had rerun the genoa sheets and didn't have enough roller furling line on the drum. The second was that we took our fortress anchor off of the bow roller and put it down below. It was “accessible” but not really.

We were sailing along pretty good with the genoa and main down wind. The lighting was everywhere. There were times when it seemed like there was more lightning than not. Every once in a while it would hit pretty close to us, and that got kind of disconcerting after awhile. The flashing was like some kind of torture continually ruining your night vision. And you never knew when another strike was just going to crash right next to us, or hit us for that matter. This went on for hours, and it was hard to be on top of your game for so long.

When the wind hit us hard, there was zero visibility and it was difficult to talk to the person next to you. My whole mission was basically to keep the boat on the proper heading so that we didn't run up on an island or the coast of Michigan. It was very difficult to keep the boat pointed at a certain heading as all I could see was white, so there was no horizon. I just had the compass with little else as a reference, and we were hauling pretty good. There were times in the worst of it that the headstay started oscillating violently. That little corner of genoa still out wasn't helping things. I didn't do anything about it because we were just trying to “hold on.” I should have tightened up a jib sheet to stop the oscillating, but I didn't think of it, and it would be almost impossible to communicate with the crew. Or I could have tightened the backstay. I had one crew next to me telling me the desired heading, and we had to really shout just to communicate. The wind was blowing lots of rain horizontally. I saw consistent winds in the high 40 knots. When the worst of it was blowing, it was all I could do to keep her on track, so looking at the wind speed did not occur to me. Nor did it occur to me to check the graphs of the wind speeds later that would be on the Nexus instruments. I was more thinking that I didn't want to be there. I mean, I am not afraid of much as it relates to sailing, storms and weather, but the lack of visibility combined with the lightning and just trying not to hit anything wore on me, I must admit. We were just going so fast almost blindfolded.

It also occurred to me that the anchor was not on the bow roller. Dragging it up from where we had it did not seem very convenient, and I will not be doing that again.

We came pretty close to some other boats which is pretty scary because you only see them at the last minute. I heard there were several collisions and some boats ran up on the beach. Some dismastings, and I remember Painkiller's blown main.

I remember seeing 12.6 on the speedo. We were going down wind, but not dead down wind with the main pretty much all the way out spilling lots of wind. I thought about dropping the main, but with the ruckus going the way it was, I really didn't want to be sending the crew anywhere. Sure, we can drop it from the cockpit, but then what? Even though we have a dutchman, it would be a cluster. If I had the anchor available, I could have dropped the main, and then just dropped the anchor and waited it out.

This went on for 5 or so hours to the best of my recollection. I noticed that my feet were killing me and I saw that I had on no shoes and was standing on the teak grate. There were 2 or 3 blasts of extreme wind. I was 100% wet. I couldn't have my foul weather cap on because I couldn't see. I just cupped over where I was looking with my hand. The GPS chart at the helm required seriously leaning down and looking closely that if I did that I lost track of keeping the boat on the right heading. An excellent crew member just kept next to me relaying the heading from the guys down below so I could dispense with dealing with that, but the desire to know “where I am” is overwhelming.

I remember one of the lightning strikes where one crew member just grabbed onto my brother in a bear hug.

I recall the constant radio transmissions about wingnuts with the entire crew in the water and 2 missing. That was over and over and over again and made the situation the real deal. This was serious.

I kept on task, kept calm, but had this serious feeling deep down that I wished I was anywhere but there. That has not happened all that often. Usually I am looking for the next monster wave to surf down having the time of my life no matter the weather.

At the end of the day, no damage and everything was fine. Even when things were settled down, we kept hearing the transmissions. “2 missing.”
 
#463 ·
Regarding the Mac Storm. Well I must say, it was probably the scariest sailing experience that I have had. And, it wasn't just one thing. Big winds? That happens often on lake Michigan. You get used to it. The other 2 big ones I have experienced was cruising, and I got the sails down in plenty of time. Then you just ride it out and be sure not to hit anything. These types of storms are not uncommon on Lake Michigan, but this was a pretty severe one. It seems as all hell is breaking loose, but you just ride it out. No problem.

It was probably the lightning that made it so scary. It was not my watch, but I was summoned on deck. I ran up in my bare feet without even realizing it. 5 hours later after standing on the teak grate behind the helm, I noticed that my feet hurt like crazy.

We just thought it was going to rain. We really had no idea that this kind of weather was approaching. We started to see a bunch of lightning, and the wind picked up to 28 knots or so. That is kind of pushing it with the spinnaker we were flying. After a bit of that, we dropped the chute and unrolled the genoa. We were moving along pretty good.

There were two mistakes we made which were just bad seamanship. First, when we left the dock, the roller furler would not roll all the way up, but rather had a little corner out. We didn't think much of it, and left it. A crew member had rerun the genoa sheets and didn't have enough roller furling line on the drum. The second was that we took our fortress anchor off of the bow roller and put it down below. It was "accessible" but not really.

We were sailing along pretty good with the genoa and main down wind. The lighting was everywhere. There were times when it seemed like there was more lightning than not. Every once in a while it would hit pretty close to us, and that got kind of disconcerting after awhile. The flashing was like some kind of torture continually ruining your night vision. And you never knew when another strike was just going to crash right next to us, or hit us for that matter. This went on for hours, and it was hard to be on top of your game for so long.

When the wind hit us hard, there was zero visibility and it was difficult to talk to the person next to you. My whole mission was basically to keep the boat on the proper heading so that we didn't run up on an island or the coast of Michigan. It was very difficult to keep the boat pointed at a certain heading as all I could see was white, so there was no horizon. I just had the compass with little else as a reference, and we were hauling pretty good. There were times in the worst of it that the headstay started oscillating violently. That little corner of genoa still out wasn't helping things. I didn't do anything about it because we were just trying to "hold on." I should have tightened up a jib sheet to stop the oscillating, but I didn't think of it, and it would be almost impossible to communicate with the crew. Or I could have tightened the backstay. I had one crew next to me telling me the desired heading, and we had to really shout just to communicate. The wind was blowing lots of rain horizontally. I saw consistent winds in the high 40 knots. When the worst of it was blowing, it was all I could do to keep her on track, so looking at the wind speed did not occur to me. Nor did it occur to me to check the graphs of the wind speeds later that would be on the Nexus instruments. I was more thinking that I didn't want to be there. I mean, I am not afraid of much as it relates to sailing, storms and weather, but the lack of visibility combined with the lightning and just trying not to hit anything wore on me, I must admit. We were just going so fast almost blindfolded.

It also occurred to me that the anchor was not on the bow roller. Dragging it up from where we had it did not seem very convenient, and I will not be doing that again.

We came pretty close to some other boats which is pretty scary because you only see them at the last minute. I heard there were several collisions and some boats ran up on the beach. Some dismastings, and I remember Painkiller's blown main.

I remember seeing 12.6 on the speedo. We were going down wind, but not dead down wind with the main pretty much all the way out spilling lots of wind. I thought about dropping the main, but with the ruckus going the way it was, I really didn't want to be sending the crew anywhere. Sure, we can drop it from the cockpit, but then what? Even though we have a dutchman, it would be a cluster. If I had the anchor available, I could have dropped the main, and then just dropped the anchor and waited it out.

This went on for 5 or so hours to the best of my recollection. I noticed that my feet were killing me and I saw that I had on no shoes and was standing on the teak grate. There were 2 or 3 blasts of extreme wind. I was 100% wet. I couldn't have my foul weather cap on because I couldn't see. I just cupped over where I was looking with my hand. The GPS chart at the helm required seriously leaning down and looking closely that if I did that I lost track of keeping the boat on the right heading. An excellent crew member just kept next to me relaying the heading from the guys down below so I could dispense with dealing with that, but the desire to know "where I am" is overwhelming.

I remember one of the lightning strikes where one crew member just grabbed onto my brother in a bear hug.

I recall the constant radio transmissions about wingnuts with the entire crew in the water and 2 missing. That was over and over and over again and made the situation the real deal. This was serious.

I kept on task, kept calm, but had this serious feeling deep down that I wished I was anywhere but there. That has not happened all that often. Usually I am looking for the next monster wave to surf down having the time of my life no matter the weather.

At the end of the day, no damage and everything was fine. Even when things were settled down, we kept hearing the transmissions. "2 missing."
Thanks for the write-up jz. That sounds pretty sobering. Glad you guys came out okay.
 
#461 ·
I've noticed a FEW.....errrrr a lot of the booke writers of the past that say you need a "such and such" style type of boat, and one does not want a "yadda yadda" boat, are now buying and using boats of the "yadda yadda" type! Ie fin keel, non skeg attached rudders etc. I would swag that those writers now realize that the "yadda yadda" types are not as bad as one thought. OR that the newer versions vs some of the older funked up IOR styles are actually sailing on par with full keel boats etc.

With ALL types of hull shapes, one may find "GOOD" models that sail well no matter where or what conditions you are in. Then one will find "BAD" designs that will not sail, hold together etc, not matter what conditions you are in. My step dad built a Bill Garden designed boat. Not sure if it is how it was built, or the design itself, But this full keeled SOB of a boat is a very rotten sailing, does not turn etc style boat. I could not imaging trying to sail this thing anywhere.

Marty
 
#466 ·
It is not ALL new Hunters, it is on certain models.

Besides when people say they don't like something on the "new" models they need to say what they mean by new.

My current boat is newer than my last boat, it is only 12 years old.
 
#470 · (Edited)
So on this whole "motion comfort" thing - I'm gonna have to call a little BS. On our recent 150-mile offshore delivery...shown here:

The Smackboys' Adventures : 150-Mile Offshore

...we were on a very nicely maintained Pearson 365 Ketch. Our course was ENE at 6-7knots, and the conditions were sporty but not bad (as you can see in the video):

15-20 knots SSE
6'-8' seas with the occasional 12'er rolling through (a bit more south than the wind)
Tight, choppy windwaves atop the swells
Clear and cool

Now I think many would consider the Pearson 365 a fairly respectable "bluewater boat" (some might not and I get that)...one that should offer a fair amount of "motion comfort" with its cutaway keel, skeg-hung rudder, deepish hull, etc. Also, this is my 4th 100+ mile off-shore on this boat, two of them races, so I'm pretty familiar with it.

Well, I puked...for the first time ever.

And the boat did some serious splashing at the bow (you can see it in the video) - some might call it "pounding". She also did a hell of a lot of creaking and groaning in that seaway. And, I want to be clear, she's a great boat.

Now, I'll revisit this issue when we get our Hunter out there this spring...but, my working theory right now is that when we compare the "production" boat to the "bluewater" boat - everything we're comparing is extremely relative and far more subtle than most want to acknowledge.

It doesn't matter what boat you're in - if the conditions are right, you're gonna puke. And eventually, you'll get over it. "Motion comfort", at least as framed in these debates, is a very squishy concept.
 
#472 · (Edited)
......
It doesn't matter what boat you're in - if the conditions are wrong, you're gonna puke. And eventually, you'll get over it. "Motion comfort", at least as framed in these debates, is a very squishy concept.
.. fixed it for ya! ;)

Nice vid, smack.. what were the temps there this time of year? Looks pretty mild from up here in the PNW...
 
#471 ·
Nice video - really nice. Great experience with the kids. Let me ask you this. Can you read in the V-Birth in conditions like that? That, I find, is the big test as to whether someone will get sea sick.

I have never gotten sea sick myself. However, I have noticed some changes in the last couple of years. A few times if I go on the tilt-a-whirl too many times in a row, I will start to feel really sick and weird. That has never happened before. On the boat, there have been a couple of times that long, slow waves seem to start making me feel strange. But not the rough stuff - yet. We just took the boat down to Crowleys to put her to bed for the winter in like 6-8 footers and it was easy as pie. Others came in with full foulies on acting like it was rough. Our boat seem to take it pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&ns=1&video_id=Q_WSihrtx78
 
#473 ·
jzk - these were the biggest swells I've been in to date. And we were beating into them. NO WAY I'd read in the v-berth! You saw that sprit bouncing around...you'd be tenderized up there far before you started puking. (PS - linky no worky).

Fast, the temps were in the mid '70s. Very nice ride.
 
#475 · (Edited)
I assume you're driving most of the time in those conditions? Like I said, this was the first time in about 600+ miles in this boat that I've puked. I don't think I would have puked on this one had I been driving. Driving makes a big difference - it's a lot easier to smile. And anyway, I only tossed a couple of times in the first hour or so and was fine after that. The boys had a much harder time.

I did LOVE the 30 knot squall we got hit with there at the end, though. THAT was some BFS'n! Waves blown flat, double reefed main and still doing over 7 knots, rain blowing sideways, yeah baby!
 
#476 · (Edited)
Yes, at the wheel, not because I needed too, but because I enjoy to be at the wheel when it is fun to be there. on autopilot I don't have problems either but you are right, given the right (or wrong:D) conditions I can get seasick.

The only time I felt starting to be seasick was 30 years ago on a 60ft heavy steel boat with a soft motion. A Belgian friend asked me and another friend to give him a help on the boat that he had charted to some "mad" British that wanted to take photos of a rare bird way offshore.

There was big waves but the sea was not particularly bad. Those guys had taken aboard a drum full of incredibly smelly oil fish, to through in the water and attracts the birds. I was cooking in the galley thinking how someone could eat with that smell when I started to fell seasick. I went up and asked to the other guy (a national sailing champion) to go down and finish the job because I was starting to be seasick. He made fun of me and went down...but 10m later was asking me to change for a bit...because he was felling seasick :D

So you are right, there are conditions where even the ones that don't normally get seasick can get seasick;).

Regards

Paulo
 
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