Production Boats and the Limits - Page 19 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree290Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #181  
Old 11-07-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 260
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
bb74 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
It should also be pointed out, many of the manufactures will have at least 2, if not 3 keel depth options, a std say around 6', a deep at 7' and a shoal at 4.5'. Please note, examples only, some depths will be deeper or shallower too!

In the US, Tartan does the same.

marty
Yep. There are no absolute truths regarding boats. My post was in response to a question about the general design differences and I think that holds pretty well without getting into a statistical demonstration (that I don't have and don't have the time to work out).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #182  
Old 11-07-2009
danielgoldberg's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 679
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 7
danielgoldberg is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
In the US and UK you still have a significant design trend for moderate LWL vs. LOA, narrower beam/LOA/LWL ratios, and only moderate transom width. You find few if any true "planing designs". Big premium on the creature comforts under deck leading to higher displacement ratios. That doesn't even include the likes of an IP that is really a design of another age. I'm not suggesting these boats don't work, and I do like the Rustler 42 as an example, but the sailing qualities are overrated for the vast majority of sailing in these parts (and I think on the East coast US as well)

Over here you have a much broader and generally available set of designs where planing hulls, whether aggressive like the Pogo, JPK, Bongo, etc, or the more moderate designs like the First classes, X, Dehler, Comets, ets. The boats typically have a near even LOA/LWL ratio, larger beam/LOA ratio and larger transoms. Displacement is lower but the Keel/ overall Displacement ratio is pretty good. Even the more recent HR's, Najad, etc are following this trend. I won't get into the sail plans and rigging as it really depends on who you buy from but you don't see those big 135% foresails anymore over here.

I tend to find that the argument (at least on these boards) for what's a safe, sturdy well found boat always comes back to some roundabout justification of why the narrower, non-planing, heavy, and non fin-keeled boats are better than the lighter, faster, wider and high keel/disp ratio boats. With todays manufacturing methods and materials there is really no reason to state one is better than another as a fact, just take a look at a Pogo 6.50 on the transat or almost any of the Transquadra boats. Any well manufactured design these days is capable of taking you from A to B in safety. Some may prefer to take longer to get there and there may be greater comfort depending upon the seas and wind, but I do not think one can state that those are the "safer" designs.

And no worries, all boats... well almost, are beautiful so no reason to fight over'em!
Not sure I understand this, and I believe some of your statements are not really right. Like designs that favor creature comforts have higher DL ratios, and US and UK boats make narrower boats that don't carry beam aft (have you seen any recent Hunters, Catalinas, Southerly, Tartan, Moody, etc.?).

That said, is the upshot of your point that you perceive Americans as insisting that only full keel, full skeg, heavy displacement boats are suitable for offshore work? If so, I agree there is a contingent of sailors who hold that opinion, but I don't think it's accurate to say it's limited to Americans. Not by any stretch. If that were true, most of the modern designs wouldn't sell in the U.S., when in fact the opposite is true.

And for what it's worth, in my opinion (which is worth exactly what you've paid for it), the "heavier" boats (for lack of a better characterization) are likely to have a more comfortable motion in sporty seas, but more importantly, they will last a longer time under that level of abuse with far less wear. Once you're into the coastal sailing, live aboard full time cruising use, that distinction becomes less significant (not totally irrelevant, but less significant) simply because you are not putting that type of constant load on the boat the way you are when you are at sea for days on end. And this is not to say that modern production boats can't go to sea, as they certainly can and have. But that doesn't mean you won't be beating the snot out of them. Maybe the best way to describe this is that if you take a Beneteau and a Valiant and sail them offshore regularly, the Beneteau will need a refit and more serious repairs far sooner than will the Valiant, and you may find yourself dealing with breakages underway in the Bene that you might not experience in the Valiant. Now, once you get into the anchorage, the crew on that Valiant will be drooling over the Bene and be begging for an invite.
__________________
Dan Goldberg

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #183  
Old 11-18-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,421
Thanks: 96
Thanked 92 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyRu View Post
And, I guess, any potential buyer needs to read this:

Report of the
Marine Accident Investigation Branch
Investigation into the capsize of the Yacht
OCEAN MADAM
with the loss of one life
in the Bay of Biscay
8 October 1997

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...an%20Madam.pdf
The linked incident report was interesting to me. I don't necessarily think it's an indictment of Benes - but more an evaluation of boat type, vanishing stability, and weather conditions, which is what we're discussing in this thread. The most intriguing part to me is the same question we've gone over before...that is "what constitutes 'blue water' vs. 'extended coastal'". These guys' route was arguably the latter, but you have this paragraph from the report that makes you stop and think...

"2.1 TheYacht

Ocean Madam was a production Beneteau Oceanis 390 yacht. The class is typical
of its type with a high volume, low ballast ratio, light displacement and shallow
hull form. It is highly suitable for most activities including charter work and has a
good safety record. It is not a suitable craft for crossing oceans in bad weather.

Such craft are more susceptible to the effects of oceanic weather conditions and
especially to heavy seas. No stability information about the yacht was held in
board. Indeed at the time of purchase such information was only made available by
the builders to owners on request. There is no evidence to suggest the craft was
unsuitable for moderately rough weather conditions nor is it suggested there should
be any restrictions imposed. The lack of this information about the yacht's
stability, including a GZ curve, denied the skipper any opportunity to scrutinise the
possible implications of handling such a yacht in a very high sea state. The
limitations of this type of light displacement craft are, however, well known to
experienced blue water sailors."


And this...

"There is no evidence to indicate the skipper considered the alternative voyage plan
which was to disregard the rhumb line track to the English Channel but to head
seaward with shortened sail on a reach and keep well clear of the potential dangers
of sailing close to the continental shelf rise and associated rough seas."


And this...

"Mr Beggs was not only familiar with Ocean Madam, having sailed in her before,
but he had extensive experience sailing a variety of craft in high sea states. He was
totally confident of his ability, and that of the yacht, to survive the anticipated sea
conditions. Before sailing from La he had calculated there was at least a
possibility they might be knocked down and had briefed his crew on the actions
they should take should this unlikely event occur. 'They were told to remain
clipped on in the confident expectation that the yacht would right itself almost
immediately. Such confidence was misplaced."


Good find Crazy.
bobber13 likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-18-2009 at 04:44 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #184  
Old 11-18-2009
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,599
Thanks: 5
Thanked 96 Times in 72 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
It is important to understand that the Beneteau 390 is a pretty out dated design whose hull form and rig was based on the IOR designs of that era. Most of the newer designs are based at least in part on IMS (or IRC) typeforms or else Open Class typeforms. As a broad generality, for any given displacement, these IMS and IRC typeforms have an enormous range of stability and much better motion comfort than either the IOR typeform or the heavier displacement typeforms that they replace.

Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #185  
Old 11-19-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 260
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
bb74 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
It is important to understand that the Beneteau 390 is a pretty out dated design whose hull form and rig was based on the IOR designs of that era. Most of the newer designs are based at least in part on IMS (or IRC) typeforms or else Open Class typeforms. As a broad generality, for any given displacement, these IMS and IRC typeforms have an enormous range of stability and much better motion comfort than either the IOR typeform or the heavier displacement typeforms that they replace.

Jeff
Thanks Jeff - apples to oranges once again - that design is nearly 2 decades old now, if not more. Things have changed, mindsets apparently have not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #186  
Old 11-19-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,421
Thanks: 96
Thanked 92 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
I guess the application here is that there are still a lot of these boats on the market and on the water. I like Benes and probably will end up getting one eventually. And it will probably be a used one.

So, as I said, I don't think it's at all an indictment of a brand - but it is great info to have precisely because of a very strong used boat market. You need to know what you're getting.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #187  
Old 11-19-2009
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 25
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
whigmaleerie is on a distinguished road
I recon the old jeanneaus are a great crompromise, tough strong but very roomy and quick boats. I would go offshore in one but I wouldnt it one of the new ones
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #188  
Old 11-19-2009
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,599
Thanks: 5
Thanked 96 Times in 72 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
In my experience, the Jeanneaus were generally not as well constructed as the First Series Beneteaus of the same era.

Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #189  
Old 11-19-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,421
Thanks: 96
Thanked 92 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Jeff - what about the First series with shoal keels? Are those pigs or do they still point well?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #190  
Old 11-19-2009
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 25
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
whigmaleerie is on a distinguished road
Ive seen a few very bad firsts Ive seen a bulkhead pushing against the hull and you can see the bulkhead very visable on the outside of the hull I wouldnt buy one it looks like a nightmare!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:12 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.