Production Boats and the Limits - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree348Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 04-12-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 584
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
NCC320 is on a distinguished road
Bluewater boats...always, heavy, narrow, with handholds everywhere. Handholds everywhere...really? So let's look at some really nice boats, some of the "flagships" shown in the magazines....not some little dinky 30-40 footer.
Maybe 70 ft ...the interiors never show handholds...on most you can't reach the overhead. These are not blue water boats?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 04-12-2009
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Bluewater boats...always, heavy, narrow, with handholds everywhere. Handholds everywhere...really? So let's look at some really nice boats, some of the "flagships" shown in the magazines....not some little dinky 30-40 footer.
Maybe 70 ft ...the interiors never show handholds...on most you can't reach the overhead. These are not blue water boats?
Believe it or not, mate - they are not!
Or, they are not, until they have the necessary grips fitted. I checked out a few and rejected them when it was obvious that I'd be thrown from wall to wall.
A friend of mine did better: at the boat show, he asked about the strength of the table base; he made sure to ask again, to really commit the salesmen, then "ooops!" he pretended that a violent sea sent him flying, and the table ended up in the corner. After that, the salesman was more timid about his claims.
jerryrlitton and captain jack like this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 04-12-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 584
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
NCC320 is on a distinguished road
So how about one a little bigger...may be 100 ft? The boat is wider, overhead higher, and nothing to hang on to. (Personally, I would like something to hang onto, but what I'm trying to point out is that sometimes our general concept of what is a bluewater boat is a bit limited. Surely, these multimillion dollar boats are more than coastal boats.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 04-12-2009
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
So how about one a little bigger...may be 100 ft? The boat is wider, overhead higher, and nothing to hang on to. (Personally, I would like something to hang onto, but what I'm trying to point out is that sometimes our general concept of what is a bluewater boat is a bit limited. Surely, these multimillion dollar boats are more than coastal boats.
Yes, I know what you're driving at; one can be too bombastic. Still, even 100 ft is nothing in a real ocean, you will not be taking leisurely strolls about without holding something - and that is before a real storm arrives. I almost broke a guy's knee last year, being stupid: he was sitting on the step to the cockpit and instead of asking him to move I thought I could sneak past. A freak wave bounced me on top of him - I still recall his screams. The wind might have been, well, just beyond a strong breeze?

Somewhere, there is a video online of a tourist ship, many hundred tons, hundreds of passengers, caught in bad weather along the coast. The bar is smashed, the lounges are cleared and all passengers are sent to their cabins because they cannot keep still in the open areas. Crew are leaping from the one fixed point to the next.

I think you'll find that the multimillion dollar yachts you mention are in fact crewed from one cruise area to the next, with the actual owners rarely boarding except when in port or cruising in nice, smooth waters.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 04-13-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,541
Thanks: 98
Thanked 98 Times in 92 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Okay - so we've seemingly settled back into the "blue water" debate...hull design, hand holds, spade rudders, hoping for a "freak" wave to "throw" you onto a nice looking crew wench, having to throw down $7.5M for a 100' yacht at a boat show because you broke the table pretending to be in a storm....that kind of thing.

But the focus here is the question of how far would you guys push a production boat - and which of those will handle it well. For example, Daniel mentions that scads of sailors take production boats down to Bermuda/Bahamas/etc.

So maybe another way to frame this question is...where does "blue water" start? Is it 10 miles off shore? 100 miles? Is it being farther than a half-day sail from land? What if your route requires a 4+ day passage in open water? And which production boats start falling out of favor as these numbers go up?

Daniel - how far would you push your Bene? What's the edge for you? Os?

(PS - Os, what do you sail? I can't tell from the pic. BTW - sweet avatar dude. Looks like Kermit has just spotted a waterfall.)

Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-13-2009 at 02:03 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 04-13-2009
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay - so we've seemingly settled back into the "blue water" debate...
Daniel - how far would you push your Bene? What's the edge for you? Os?

(PS - Os, what do you sail? I can't tell from the pic. BTW - sweet avatar dude. Looks like Kermit has just spotted a waterfall.)
Apologies, Smack! I am on the same tack as you; production boats can be stretched. It was just the handholds that got me, not the narrow boat etc.

Uhmmm, my boat.. can't you see from the avatar it is a 3x3 raft?
I am a little embarassed to say otherwise, especially after the debate above.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 04-13-2009
danielgoldberg's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 679
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 7
danielgoldberg is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Daniel - how far would you push your Bene? What's the edge for you?
I'll answer it this way, and I'm not sure what else to say. Our intended use for the boat is: (1) mostly coastal cruising/weekending/summer vacations; (2) limited racing; (3) cruising the Bahamas and similar at some point (possibly the Carib); and (4) trips to Bermuda every few years with our rally.

If I did not believe it could handle that billet, we would not have bought the boat. Now, whether it will ACTUALLY handle that billet is yet to be determined.

Also, note that a friend, Franc Carreras of SeaKnots, has a 2008 Beneteau 43. He sailed it from NY to Florida in January (that's right, JANUARY!), then over to the Bahamas, through the chain, down to the Caribbean, and he's hooking up with ARC Europe to do a trans-Atlantic to Spain. He has done just about the entirety of the trip from Florida with only he and his wife as crew. He hasn't made it across the Atlantic yet, but he certainly made it down the Thorny Path to the Caribbean, and the boat's still floating. Note also that usually the single largest brand to participate in the ARC (Atlantic Rally for Cruisers) is Beneteau. Not that many Hunters or Catalinas, but I suspect that's mostly becaue the ARC starts in Europe and comes to the Carib, and there just are not as many Hunters/Catalinas in Europe as there are on this side of the Pond. I raise this not to "brag" about Beneteaus or anything like that, but to show that the boats can do more than what most people will ask of them.

In sum, if you are like 95% of the sailors out there, the production boats will handle what you plan to do, IMHO. That's not to say they are for everyone. There certainly are nicer boats out there, that have more character, different sailing qualities, better build construction, better at weathering long-term use and abuse, and the list goes on and on. But your question is how far can you push a production boat, and I believe the answer is: A fair bit farther than the actual use 95% of the sailors will put them to.

If you are looking to buy one, you like it, it's in your price range, and it's in good shape, then buy it. On the flip side, if you just can't get past having to tell people you have a BeneHuntaLina, then don't buy it. This activity is for fun, and if you find that you need to apologize for what you sail, then it's a whole lot less fun, and you should sail a different boat. No point in spending a ton of money on a toy that for which you feel you need to apologize right from the start.
__________________
Dan Goldberg

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 04-13-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,541
Thanks: 98
Thanked 98 Times in 92 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Now THAT'S a good summation! Thanks Daniel! And I totally agree on the whole "apologizing for your boat" thing. It's a crock. This is one of the main reasons I'm exploring this question. Personally, I like the production boats. And I think they've been maligned beyond what really makes sense. Sure, there's a level of truth in the criticism - but it's not an all-or-nothing debate.

Me? There's no way in hell I'd follow Childress' lead and take my C27 around the world. No freakin' way. I don't think I'd feel too comfortable taking it beyond a day's sail out to be honest (it's age notwithstanding, but just its size and configuration). But I'm not too interested either in buying a full-keel tank and continually putting up with slow, cumbersome sailing for that very small chance of getting caught in a nasty storm*. All that for being able to simply say I have a "blue water boat"? No thanks.

I appreciate you taking the time to expound a bit. It's definitely helpful.

So - with the feedback from Daniel and Giu - the Benes seem to be the leading contender in the production boat smackdown. Fast and tough and reliable enough for hops across the pond. That's sayin' something.

Any Irwin/Hunter/Catalina/O'Day/etc. owners out there with similar viewpoints?

(*Disclaimer - this is the opinion of a loud-mouthed newbie that has only sailed 3 boats in his celebrated 10 month sailing career on a lake, Catalina, Hunter and O'day. So this is all purely based on what said sailor has read and heard from other sailors. At the same time, said sailor is fully confident in his capabilities as a sailor to sink ANY boat out there - blue water or no.)

Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-13-2009 at 02:54 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 04-13-2009
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Now THAT'S a good summation! Thanks Daniel! And I totally agree on the whole "apologizing for your boat" thing.
Smack, I saw this and wondered if "apologise" was a misinterpretation of my "embarassed to say" - so just in case: after arguing how well almost any boat could do, I wasn't going to fezz up and admit that mine is "blue water", only three years old and hardly inexpensive. That was what I was shy about, in case someone thought rambling about handholds was snobbery

So OK, mine is an Ovni 395, with a lot of go-anywhere gear. Also, I go anywhere, have lived in it for a year traveling around (not just now), will cross north past the Polar Circle this summer, then straight south through Europe, and hopefully around New Year my address should be the Americas. The longest/furthest I have been without dropping anchor so far is 10 days at sea. It is not a snobbish boat, but much thought went into safety, self-sufficiency and such. There is a distant photo in my profile.
And, to be sure, it wouldn't worry me to try in a much less dedicated boat. In any case, Smackdaddy, I am as capable as you at sinking any boat, anywhere - guaranteed.
midnightsailor and kj3564 like this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 04-13-2009
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,904
Thanks: 3
Thanked 110 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
The bene is no better than a Catalina - the Catalina no better than the Bene. I think there are some models of both that are distasteful. I like the older Catalinas and Benes better than some of the new ones - but that is just my personal opinion. But for anyone that has not seen some pics of Dan's boat... you cannot tell me that is not a sweet ride (even without the BBQ's). Why wouldn't you take that boat anywhere within reason?? Same can be said of many/most production boats over 38 feet or so. I would feel comfortable taking my boat to most distant locations... but again I have been making and have made many modifications. From solar panels and arch to revamped electricl system, and many other changes, this ain't your typical out of the box C400!



That being said, you can take most production boats anywhere. I guess you could take one straight out of the box and circle the world, but it would take more seamanship and more luck than you might need for a Valiant of similar size. In order to reduce the need for luck and/or seamanship skills, you can start making changes to the boat like better portholes, handholds, lifelines, tankage, cabinets, tankage, cabinets for storage, positive latching floorboards, tankage, tabbed bulkheads or reinforced bulkheads, cabinets, etc (and not to forget to add tankage). By the time you have made all these changes, it might have been cheaper to just buy a traditional bluewater boat! Maybe not. But there are also many positives of production boats... cost not necessarily one of them.

However, if I was certain of making far destinations beyond a 5 day weather window, I really would start looking at boats outside of the typical production line. I personally draw the line at 5 days because beyond that, it is very difficult (if not alltogether impossible) to guess the weather. At 5 days, you also start really pushing into the tankage limit on most production boats without modification (again, my personal limit WITHOUT modification). But I stress that unless you are certain to make those jumps, I probably would not do it. I would buy the boat that is comfortable on the hook (as a live aboard) first and foremost. That is where 99% of your time is spent.

I believe that most production boats of a reasonable size will, with some amount of luck and good seamanship, go to distant ports. The questin typically is not whether the boat can get you there, it is whether the captain can. It is hard to appreciate this statement until you have weathered your first good blow beyond the reach of a VHF and you really are on your own.

- CD
__________________
Sailnet Moderator



1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to Cruisingdad For This Useful Post:
J1b3h0 (07-21-2013)
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:05 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.