Production Boats and the Limits

[GreatWhite]

Here is a slight revision. Regarding 1 and 2, these lists are massive, many more options than proven blue water capable boats

1. Lake/Bay Boats
-O'day
-Macgregor
-Lancer
-Yorktown

2. Coastal Boats
-Catalina
-Hunter
-Beneteau
-Jenneau
-Irwin
-Endeavour
-Gulfstar

3. Premium Coastal (Light Blue Water Capable)
-Caliber
-Ericson
-C&C
-Tartan
-Dehler
-Morgan
-Cheoy Lee
-Pearson

4. Blue Water Capable
-Cal (32-40-46-48)
-CSY
-Westsail
-Flika
-IP
-Tayana
-Hinckley
-Cabo Rico
-Oyster
-Hylas
-many of the J boats

Many others - see Mahina.com list

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by GreatWhite

Here is a slight revision. Regarding 1 and 2, these lists are massive, many more options than proven blue water capable boats

1. Lake/Bay Boats
-O'day
-Macgregor
-Lancer
-Yorktown

2. Coastal Boats
-Catalina
-Hunter
-Beneteau
-Jenneau
-Irwin
-Endeavour
-Gulfstar

3. Premium Coastal (Light Blue Water Capable)
-Caliber
-Ericson
-C&C
-Tartan
-Dehler
-Morgan
-Cheoy Lee
-Pearson

Very cool - great. So since this is not a BW thread - let's just nuke 4 and continue to populate 1-3.

Next?

PS - though I like them in general, I've heard that Cheoy Lee's are really spotty. Is that true?

[mitiempo]

Production as I see it is a boat that was built in a non-custom way in reasonably large numbers. Home built really shouldn't apply.
As far as Cal 40 and 46, the 46 is definitely a cruiser designed for offshore, but I don't believe the Cal 40 was designed for offshore cruising. In it's day (old shoe times) it was quite radical and has gone on travel far and wide but was really a racer/cruiser at first.
Gulfstar and Endeavour probably should be coastal, at least depending on model for Gulfstar.
I question the "lake" designation for most boats 30' or over. (Macgregors are under this length). O'day 30+ should be coastal, Lancer and Yorktown as well. I really don't know of any boats mentioned over 30' not designed for coastal cruising watching the weather.
Westsail was designed for offshore and marketed as such much like the Bristol Channel Cutter was more recently.
Brian

[GreatWhite]

Smack,

I appreciate you are wanting to focus on the 1-3 categories as that has been less focused on in general on SN.

I think you will find a gravitation to the BW side as that seems to capture the imagination of the arm chair sailors more than buying a boat to cross a small lake. Not to say that isn't what 99% of people end up doing! (although we are making it off the couch as it were and have a BW boat and we are taking to the Marquesas ... we also sail on a lake but on the lake I like boats that go fast for the Regattas....so that is my focus...) all that said

Production boats can be broken in style Cruise or Race
age older or newer
older can further be broken into cca or ior

the lake boats and models vary from area to area

In the plus 20 year old boats In the PNW there are a tonne of San Juans which are a great production boat mostly in the IOR style.

In the west there are many Santanas to...a little less 'pinched' but a great light fast boat

Other general (older) production boats Catalina, US boats, Ericson, Bayfield, J, Mac, PS, O Day, Tanzer

Newer (some of these have been around a while) C&C Bene, Catalina, Jenneau, Dufour ...

[mitiempo]

GreatWhite
What design is shown in your profile? Quite often when I am in a thread I will look up a profile to see what boat a poster has and I wish all were listed.
I agree about the San Juans etc in the PNW. As well there are Canadian boats like Fraser 36 and 41 I think, Spencer 35,42,44,1330,and 46, Cooper built Seabird 37 and Maple Leaf 42, and the Sceptre 36.
Brian

[Hillster]

O'day should be in list 2 and the Caliber and Tartan ARE fully bluewater capable and should not be on list 3

[casioqv]

Does grouping boat brands and models by seaworthiness really make any sense?

I could imagine a Macgregor 21 handling a light ocean storm just fine with everything in perfect shape, proper storm sails and a drogue, some rigging upgrades, and well sealed hatches. An old Westsail 32 with the original standing rigging and some crevice corrosion on the chainplates could easily become demasted, while the Macgregor is undamaged, right? Or it could loose a shoddy through-hull and sink.

Is the design and construction of the boat itself really that relevant compared to the variables of equipment condition, and skipper experience? I doubt it!

I suspect that most boat sinking in rough weather isn't due to the overall quality of the boat, but due to overlooking some minor maintenance issue like a corroded hose clamp, or a low grade bolt fitted where a high grade was needed. Even the lightest lake cruiser is built with huge margins of safety in design and construction, assuming everything is maintained in tip top shape.

Which boat will be more comfortable and sail-able in a storm seems pretty clear cut, but which will be more likely to survive probably can't be predicted from generalizations about entire brands or models.

[mitiempo]

casioqv
While I agree that more boats probably sink from maintenance/handling than from original quality I don't believe the measure of an offshore capable boat is strictly whether it sinks or not. Design features like companionway openings that are severely tapered and go to the cockpit sole would tell me immediately that the boat wasn't designed with offshore use in mind. A lot of boats need additional handholds for example this is an easy owner addition. Some features really have to be there from original design and manufacture as they're too hard/expensive to do later. While it's not too hard to install additional tankage for example, when all the cabinetry is only held in with a few screws and the bulkheads aren't glassed to the hull it's too much to change in my opinion.
Brian

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by casioqv

Does grouping boat brands and models by seaworthiness really make any sense?

I could imagine a Macgregor 21 handling a light ocean storm just fine with everything in perfect shape, proper storm sails and a drogue, some rigging upgrades, and well sealed hatches. An old Westsail 32 with the original standing rigging and some crevice corrosion on the chainplates could easily become demasted, while the Macgregor is undamaged, right? Or it could loose a shoddy through-hull and sink.

Is the design and construction of the boat itself really that relevant compared to the variables of equipment condition, and skipper experience? I doubt it!

I suspect that most boat sinking in rough weather isn't due to the overall quality of the boat, but due to overlooking some minor maintenance issue like a corroded hose clamp, or a low grade bolt fitted where a high grade was needed. Even the lightest lake cruiser is built with huge margins of safety in design and construction, assuming everything is maintained in tip top shape.

Which boat will be more comfortable and sail-able in a storm seems pretty clear cut, but which will be more likely to survive probably can't be predicted from generalizations about entire brands or models.

Does it make any sense? Heck no! But it's fun!

Seriously, all I know as an average schmo that has done a lot of reading about these boats - here and elsewhere - is that you always run into comments like "I would never take an XX out of sight of land. The build quality is too spotty and the equipment too light." etc.

So in that regard, people DO put these "production boats" into these categories and as a potential buyer it gets overwhelmingly confusing. I guess I'm just trying to find some very general consensus on what's what.

Yes, these kinds of lists are pretty arbitrary. But that's better than nothing. Think of it as the little brother to "Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere" - maybe like "Twenty Production Boats To Take You Just Far Enough Out To Get You Killed Because You Didn't Buy a Swan".

PS - Where do Sabre's fit? #3?

[GeorgeB]

Smack, things a little bit boring out there on the prairie lately? I thought this was all talked out months ago. There is no absolute ranking of boat builders – it is all too subjective. You are going to have to get a little experience to know what YOU want in a boat and go from there. To clear up some of the (minor) misconceptions: Tumblehome is a hull design where the max beam is greater than the beam at the deck. It was popularized during the IOR days where that formula had restrictions on certain dimensions. By going to a tumblehome shape, designers could lengthen the effective water line (and greater hull speed) for a given beam width. The venerable Cal 40 was designed by Lapworth to race the Transpac wherein it dominated that race for years after that. The Cal 40 went on to be selected as the boat used in the Congressional Cup. (Incidentally, it was later replaced by the Catalina 38.) The Cal 40 is a blue water boat. So how strong, stiff, heavily built is it? Starting at 2,000 lbs of backstay tension, you are no longer tightening the rigging, you are warping the hull. You can bend the hull by pulling the backstay tensioner on the Islander 36 too. Measured in square inches, the companionway opening on the Newport 30 is greater than the Catalina 30. So what is the difference between “premium coastal” and “regular coastal”? Does the one come with the upgraded radio, A/C, leather seats and wheel covers? Some day, if you ever come out to SF, I will take you to some broker friends of mine (J, Sabre, Beneteau and Catalina) who would be more than happy to discuss boat design with you. Oh, and one more thing, you are in serious need of some saltwater, dude! You need to spend less time keyboarding and more time trimming!