Production Boats and the Limits - Page 35 - SailNet Community
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post #341 of 2155 Old 01-22-2012
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Originally Posted by jzk View Post
Kilarney,

What about your boat would make it not suitable for the Horn or Antarctica? What design upgrade would you suggest that would make it suitable?

One concern that I have about serious offshore work in modern production boats would be the spade rudder.

For example, I would much prefer a Leopard 47 Catamaran vs. a Bahia 46 as the Leopard 47 has skeg protected rudders. I have seen a video of a Venezia 42 being abandoned because it bent both rudders. Our Beneteau First 47.7 is pretty rock solid when it comes to things like stays, chainplates, the hull grid, etc. But we draw 7'7" and the rudder is almost as deep as the keel. Not sure I would want to be ripping that thing off, but I am told it is extremely flexible and strong.

Same with Outremer vs. Gunboat. I think Creme (Gunboat 46) lost a rudder in the Chesapeake. But at least they had the other one Outremers have skegs before the rudders. I guess with these performance daggerboard catamarans with no keels, a skeg might be even more important, but Peter Johnstone cringes at the thought of messing up sailing performance with a skeg. Maybe a reasonable tradeoff, but then one is higher performance, and the other more suitable for offshore sailing. However, if I had a Gunboat lying around, I would probably give it a go

Your Bristol looks pretty offshore capable to me. I guess more offshore capable would mean steel hull?
Note that I said I would be comfortable/uncomfortable doing certainly things, not that the boat couldn't do it. The Bristols are incredibly strong boats but ours in 30 years old. Basically everything is fine and I don't know what refits I would do. Perhaps new sails and a carbon fiber spinnaker/whisker pole would be nice. If I was poking around rocky anchorages behind Cape Horn I would probably get a really heavy anchor (100+ lbs Manson) and better systems for running long lines astern. In such areas, steel would be attractive I think - not an easy retrofit. The cockpit has 4 - 1 1/2" drains - I wonder if those would be made larger.

I think that lots of boats are offshore capable until the shite hits the fan.

Back home on Lake Ontario after something over 36,000 nm circumnavigator. Not surprisingly there is a lot of stuff I want to get done on Ainia both cosmetically and functionally. Getting an early start so it will be ready to go for next summer (Lake Superior?).
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post #342 of 2155 Old 01-22-2012
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I've seen this post on almost every sailing-cruiser forum in existence. The reality is that you could set yourself adrift on a pallet of Budweiser, and attempt a circumnavigation, no mater what your skill set. The truth of the matter is that your chosen mode of transportation doesn't instantly define it as blue water cruiser because you set your sails 300+ miles from shore. Perhaps there should be a formula, based on all other formulas including your odds of returning that defines a blue water cruiser. SA/D, D/L, ballast displacement ratios, and motion comfort along with stability (the resistance to capsizing) as well as the angle of vanishing stability are more important than the size of your deep freeze. Of all things the length of the boat is most critical. When sailing into a breaking wave, most boats can survive a 55% LOA breaking wave. (IE a 30' boat and a 15' wave) Yet a 35% LOA breaking wave hitting beam-on can easily capsize a boat. Boats tested in these conditions rolled up to 130+ degrees. Further testing shows that no boat, no matter how stable, could resist capsizing when hit, beam-on, with a 55% LOA breaking wave. Personally I would rather give myself a circumcision with a rusty blade than set sail with what some would call a blue water cruiser. Ultimately given the same boat, it's the skipper who defines a blue water cruiser.
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post #343 of 2155 Old 01-22-2012
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From someone who has been there, these are things that I think are essential if you are truly going offshore in the Atlantic and want to be safe as possible. Sat phone, SSB, Weather Fax, Radar, AIS, underdeck autopilot, back up autopilot, storm sails, large anchor with chain rode, back up anchor, liferaft, Solas flare package, electronic barometer, GPS chartplotter, jacklines, harnesses.

Things that are nice but not essential. Crash forward bulkhead and/or water tight bulkhead, storm shutters, storm drogue, generator, electronic charting, HH GPS.

If you have a production boat you might want to look into stiffening the large panel sections in the hull, upgrading hatch to offshore version with reinforced hatch opening, reinforced portlights with lenses upgraded to Lexan, upgraded scuppers to increase drainage, upgraded dodger to larger tube size, upgrade halyards with Kevlar cover in area of masthead sheaves, add additional attachment methods for storing the pole. Replace any hoses that are suspect and make sure all through hulls are operational and double clamped.

I'd also think that you want a fiberglass professional to asses all the tabbing on the boat and reinforce where necessary. A thorough going over of all mechanicals and spares would be prudent. I'd also replace the prop shaft, cutlass bearing and have the engine aligned if they haven't been done in the last couple of years.

Now if you are going to the Bahamas by way of South Florida pretty much everything above is unnecessary.
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post #344 of 2155 Old 01-22-2012
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i agree. to sit and worry about all this is pointless. the seas are bigger than any boat man could build. my boat will self right up to 135 degrees. meaningless if tons of water suddenly crash down on the rail. she WILL roll.
does this mean this boat is any less capable? not at all. it might mean the skipper is not capable on a couple counts.
count one, why are you in these conditions?
count two, where are your storm tactics and equipment? and lastly, why is your boat abeam to the sea?
none of which is the boats fault. some people are so dumb, they could sink an aircraft carrier! sadly, many times i find myself in this group!
man was confidently sailing these seas long before there were any real engineering and standards to classify "blue water" or "production boat" or any other catch phrases we armchair circumnavigators can come up with.
another thing i notice is, people tend to hide behind equipment. "i could shoot a par round of golf if i only had those clubs". or "my rifle is not up to snuff to go to that sniper school". or "i cant leave the dock because my boat needs....."
if we waited for everything to be perfect, then we would run out of excuses to not.
if we waited for everything to be perfect, then we would never do anything.
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post #345 of 2155 Old 01-22-2012
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We are fortunate to have periodic updates from Sequiter's ambitious cruising itinerary.. they left BC a couple of summers back and are now in southern Chile/Argentina, mere miles from the Horn.

Their exploits pretty much address the topic of this thread, and makes it pretty clear that if a boat is well prepared and reasonably managed that most can go pretty well anywhere (truly BAD boats excepted, of course) and that it hinges mainly on the attitude, skills and fortitude of the crew.

Michael and Edi have taken a quintessential 'production boat', a Hunter 49, indeed well prepared and fully equipped, and are taking it nearly to the ends of the earth. Their blog entries are truly inspiring and their cruising style (and diet ) top class.

In many ways this thread is answered in that venue alone.. If you've not checked in you should.

The latest:

Sequitur Blog Update

Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
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post #346 of 2155 Old 01-22-2012
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The reality is that you could set yourself adrift on a pallet of Budweiser, and attempt a circumnavigation, no mater what your skill set.
Bottles or cans? Can you drink the beer to reduce displacement to sail faster in nice conditions and then refill (beer tanker follows) when necessary? Drink the beer on one side only for movable ballast? The mind boggles at the possibilities

Back home on Lake Ontario after something over 36,000 nm circumnavigator. Not surprisingly there is a lot of stuff I want to get done on Ainia both cosmetically and functionally. Getting an early start so it will be ready to go for next summer (Lake Superior?).
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post #347 of 2155 Old 01-22-2012
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Quote:
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Bottles or cans? Can you drink the beer to reduce displacement to sail faster in nice conditions and then refill (beer tanker follows) when necessary? Drink the beer on one side only for movable ballast? The mind boggles at the possibilities
LOL, It has to be cans of Canadian (bottles sink), and if you drank one can per day, you'd have about 30 days afloat (so to speak). Of course higher alcohol content might last a little longer.
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post #348 of 2155 Old 01-23-2012
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Quote:
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Bottles or cans? Can you drink the beer to reduce displacement to sail faster in nice conditions and then refill (beer tanker follows) when necessary? Drink the beer on one side only for movable ballast? The mind boggles at the possibilities
Kegs. And, yes, drink in route.
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post #349 of 2155 Old 01-23-2012 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
We are fortunate to have periodic updates from Sequiter's ambitious cruising itinerary.. they left BC a couple of summers back and are now in southern Chile/Argentina, mere miles from the Horn.

Their exploits pretty much address the topic of this thread, and makes it pretty clear that if a boat is well prepared and reasonably managed that most can go pretty well anywhere (truly BAD boats excepted, of course) and that it hinges mainly on the attitude, skills and fortitude of the crew.

Michael and Edi have taken a quintessential 'production boat', a Hunter 49, indeed well prepared and fully equipped, and are taking it nearly to the ends of the earth. Their blog entries are truly inspiring and their cruising style (and diet ) top class.

In many ways this thread is answered in that venue alone.. If you've not checked in you should.

The latest:

Sequitur Blog Update
+1000.

One thing that is very clear, to mikie's point, is that Michael is an extremely good seaman/sailor. The dude know's what he's doing. The boat is secondary to that knowledge, effort and experience.

I honestly think that to make any primary argument about the capability of the boat is really missing the point. Most boats will do just fine in blue water.


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post #350 of 2155 Old 01-23-2012
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I honestly think that to make any primary argument about the capability of the boat is really missing the point. Most boats will do just fine in blue water.
You're way too serious. Of course the boat is important; if not the crew would be swimming from here to there (Or riding a Kegger). Thor Heyerdahl proved a number of times it's the Skipper who makes the difference, but when it comes to the boat; form to function wins the day.
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