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  #391  
Old 04-30-2013
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I think any time you try to make groupings like this you are in for trouble, there are just too many 'yes, buts' to end up with a useful list. To give just a couple:
- the last group are of course production boats. You can buy a Tayana 37 hull number in 3 digits and there have been dozens of various models of Hinckley, Oyster, etc.
- just because a boat is very expensive does not mean that it is a superior boat for blue water.
- some manufacturers have built boats that are very different, Beneteau, Morgan and C&C are good examples, because of this the placements make little sense. We have a friend who was a seasoned Mini-Transat sailor (race your 22 footer from France to Brazil kind of guy) and he chose a Bene Oceanus to go cruising with his wife and two small children. He would not classify it as a coastal boat and neither would I.
- most Hinckleys are gorgeous boats but they are not really designed primarily as passage makers. You could do better with a lot less money.

For what is worth, here are the models of boats that we have seen more than one of who were circumnavigating ( the memory is not perfect so I may have forgotten some - these are in order with most common first. Also i don't know all the European and Down Under models. The remarkable thing is how many different models there are.)
Amel - can't keep all the models around 52 feet straight, but altogether about 8
Beneteau 50 - 3
Vega 27 - 3
Gulfstar 50 - 2 for all the rest
Morgan OI 41
Tayana 37
Tayana 52
Bristol 45.5
Oyster 54/56
Discovery 55
Pearson 36
Moody 34/35
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  #392  
Old 04-30-2013
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Did you not saw any aluminium boats? OVNI?
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  #393  
Old 04-30-2013
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
I think any time you try to make groupings like this you are in for trouble, there are just too many 'yes, buts' to end up with a useful list. To give just a couple:
- the last group are of course production boats. You can buy a Tayana 37 hull number in 3 digits and there have been dozens of various models of Hinckley, Oyster, etc.
- just because a boat is very expensive does not mean that it is a superior boat for blue water.
- some manufacturers have built boats that are very different, Beneteau, Morgan and C&C are good examples, because of this the placements make little sense. We have a friend who was a seasoned Mini-Transat sailor (race your 22 footer from France to Brazil kind of guy) and he chose a Bene Oceanus to go cruising with his wife and two small children. He would not classify it as a coastal boat and neither would I.
- most Hinckleys are gorgeous boats but they are not really designed primarily as passage makers. You could do better with a lot less money.

For what is worth, here are the models of boats that we have seen more than one of who were circumnavigating ( the memory is not perfect so I may have forgotten some - these are in order with most common first. Also i don't know all the European and Down Under models. The remarkable thing is how many different models there are.)
Amel - can't keep all the models around 52 feet straight, but altogether about 8
Beneteau 50 - 3
Vega 27 - 3
Gulfstar 50 - 2 for all the rest
Morgan OI 41
Tayana 37
Tayana 52
Bristol 45.5
Oyster 54/56
Discovery 55
Pearson 36
Moody 34/35
It would be fun to get a general list "close" though. I'll give it another go and we can argue some more!
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  #394  
Old 04-30-2013
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Things i have found on this thread to look at "is it a blue water boat".
Access to systems,
Tankage
lazarette
hatch gasgets
cabinet latches
battery boxes
tabbed bulkheads
cockpit drains
companion way (size and water exclusion)
strong stern cleats
Hand holds
sorry that is all I got from this whole thread.
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  #395  
Old 04-30-2013
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I was reading back through this thread. It's really pretty awesome, with some great posts by some great sailors.

So to recap...first, the "rules"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay - so a quick summary of the wildly varying sentiment of the past pages, which is now close to becoming the definitive gospel on BAPDs for all time...

General Rules:
1. "Blue water" and/or "offshore" can be defined for our purposes as a 5 day passage from anchorage to anchorage (due to the modern weather window). It's beyond what most think of as "coastal" cruising, but it's not a pull across the Pacific either. (That said - these boats CAN also do a longer hop without major issues. See Givens below).
2. The unforeseen weather limit we seem to have set is a strong gale/"weak" storm (e.g. Force 9-10). This means that if you were unlucky enough to get caught in one, you'd still feel relatively safe in your production boat with appropriate heavy weather precautions (e.g. - storm sails, drogues, etc.). In other words, it's not going to fall apart around you.

General Givens:
1. It is understood that the vast majority of modern production boats can and have indeed circumnavigated - some with major modifications and strengthening, others without. Virtually any boat can indeed be sailed virtually anywhere in the right conditions. But this particular conversation is centered around the rules above as this is where most sailors will play.
2. It is understood that the boat typically outlasts the sailor's will/ability even in the worst of conditions.
3. It is understood that there are a million variables in all these estimations from tankage, to crew size, to boat size, to gear, etc. But this discussion is a wildly irresponsible rule of thumb exercise - so there you go.
4. When it comes to separating the first and second tiers - it probably comes down more to comfort than toughness. But, few will argue that comfort ain't a good thing in the long run. So there you go.

The True Contenders:
1. Beneteau: seems to get high marks all-round as a boat that is well-built, fast, serviceable, comfortable, and sturdy. All-round winner.
2. Catalina: seems to be the next in line in the above areas - though CD will protest wildly that "Bene's got nothin'. Jeff likes my boat best."
3. Jenneau: Right in the hunt - but arguable as to where it finally falls. Serviceability? Better than newer Hunters?
4. Hunter: seems to still be suffering from "poor design" during previous runs - yet has seemingly improved in the last few years. It seems the jury is still out on this one.

The Second Tier:
1. Tartan: older ones at least (say pre '90?). problems with hatch design, etc. discussed, but still liked.
2. Sabre: tough boats - but some problems listed.
3. Hallberg Rassy: starts to move out of typical "production boat" world and into high-priced "elite" boats (same with OVNI, etc.) that are more "blue" than "production".
4. From here we probably pass into the realm of "lesser" blue water boats. So I'll stop here.

Fugedaboudit?:
1. Irwin: still personally not convinced of that this one fails the test. built lighter and for a lower cost point - but does that completely move it out of the contender category?
2. O'Day: a lot of them around, but no one willing to go to bat for it.
3. McGregor: the big ones rock - but anything less than 45'+ gets a nose thumb and a good heckling.
4. Any multi-hull. Those things are just abominations to sailing. Heh-heh.

What have we left out?
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  #396  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

And the "Non-Bluewater-Production-Boat" list (as revised by GreatWhite):

1. Lake/Bay Boats (stay within the sight of land, seriously)
-Macgregor
-Lancer
-Yorktown
-Bayliner Bucaneer (although you can score a lot of babes with that boat...obviously...see attached):
-Chrysler

2. Coastal Boats (that can still go anywhere on earth if you're careful and good)
-Catalina
-Hunter
-Beneteau
-Jenneau
-Irwin
-Endeavour
-Gulfstar
-O'day
-Cal
-J-Boats

3. Premium Coastal/Light Blue Water Capable (arguably perfectly suited for blue water passages, but considered by some as "too light")
-Caliber
-Ericson
-C&C
-Tartan
-Dehler
-Morgan
-Cheoy Lee
-Pearson

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For this discussion, pretty much everything else is considered blue-water capable by most.

Feel free to froth at the mouth and disagree. That's always fun to watch.
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  #397  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Smack,

THe issue with all of this, I believe the meastro said it the other day. I believe he used his Islander 28 as an example. It was designed for coastal work. BUT, the overall design would allow one to sail anywhere in it! A laser on the other hand, obviously local. Even the Morris M series, while VERY WELL if not in the excellent build quality, is not rated by the european stds as being ocean going!

THere is not a right or wrong at the endof the day per say. Does it have the strength to sail thru a gail or stronger wind off shore? does it have tankage for your use? plus I am sure many more answers. I would not have an issue taking my 28' jeanneau off shore. it has made off shore passages! I would not be surprised of an I28 has not made an offshore passage or two or three.

Really, ANY boat on a good day could probably sail an ocean. bad day, probably up to the skipper more than anything. At the end, not really worth arguing over which is a better offshore boat. As said earlier by a few. Swan, Oyster etc very expensive, are still production boats! The only boats that are not production models, come as one off's, if more than 2 or 3 are planned, a mold is made per say, then it is a production boat! car! house! bycycle etc! I really doubt that ANY of us that use this forum are going to truely buy a from scrath, one off boat. At best, we may highly modify some things from a production boat, Morris comes to mind that will do this. The base boat from Morris, is prodiction oriented! pure plain and simple. Higher quality, build materials to a degree, but still a production boat!

Marty
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  #398  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And the "Non-Bluewater-Production-Boat" list (as revised by GreatWhite):

1. Lake/Bay Boats (stay within the sight of land, seriously)
-Macgregor
-Lancer
-Yorktown
-Bayliner Bucaneer (although you can score a lot of babes with that boat...obviously...see attached):
-Chrysler

2. Coastal Boats (that can still go anywhere on earth if you're careful and good)
-Catalina
-Hunter
-Beneteau
-Jenneau
-Irwin
-Endeavour
-Gulfstar
-O'day
-Cal
-J-Boats

3. Premium Coastal/Light Blue Water Capable (arguably perfectly suited for blue water passages, but considered by some as "too light")
-Caliber
-Ericson
-C&C
-Tartan
-Dehler
-Morgan
-Cheoy Lee
-Pearson

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For this discussion, pretty much everything else is considered blue-water capable by most.

Feel free to froth at the mouth and disagree. That's always fun to watch.
Smack, It all comes to what you call a blue-water boat. If that means a boat designed exclusively for blewater sailing there are ones better than others but none is designed to do that as their main purpose. Such a boat, for instance, would have a 3.00m draft, since that is mot a problem for bluewater sailing and has many advantages in what regards sailing.

All boats are a compromise but assuming you mean by bluewater boat a boat that has a big safety margin sailing on "normal" latitudes at the right season I would say that almost all mass production cruisers of 40ft and over will have that margin. The bigger difference between them is that few come already rigged for that and the others you will have to command the needed options, or have the dealer install them. The reason those options, like a cutter rig, a removable stay or jack lines will not come standard with the boat is because it would make the boat unnecessarily inexpensive for the ones that don't need them.

If you want to increase your safety margin you will just buy a bigger boat. Today 50fts are designed to be sailed by a couple. And there are no small sailboat that can sail safely at the wrong latitudes at the wrong season at least without a much bigger risk factor. Even at the right latitude and wrong season it can be problematic to all small sailing boats.

It makes sense to say that a boat like this one is not a bluewater boat?:



or that it would be less of a bluewater boat than a smaller Caliber an Ericson a C&C a Tartan a Morgan a Cheoy Lee or a Pearson, or watever the boat.

Each case is a case, there are ones better than others, but making that distinction by brands makes mo sense unless that brand has no boats suited for offshore work. But even the MacGregor has a 65ft yacht. Do you mean that was not designed taking offshore sailing in mind, among other concerns? Or that it is not a better blue water boat than a Westsail 32ft?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-01-2013 at 08:07 AM.
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  #399  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay - so - after studying and discussing this issue for over 4 years now, I have reached a conclusion...

There are virtually no limits on any production cruising boat. You can sail most any boat around the world...as long as the weather is right, and as long as you are a pretty good, pretty conservative sailor.

The whole "bluewater boat" debate is crap. We can go ahead and lock this thread now.
OH NO, not so fast my brother, We shall not paddle another mile , nor spread Dacron to wind, Until we have given Honourable mention to the World Renown Princess of all inter-coastal and Blue water desires.
The Allied Princess 36' Ketch!
now we may conclude the list complete the discussion done......
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

sorry I"m a little off topic but my viewpoint is different.

I read all these lovely posts on which boat is best in hopes that i will be able to find the boat that will take me over the horizon single handed.
How long, wide, or deep, and sail plan I begin to understand. Now I am looking for clues to help when I board a boat and inspect her. will i love her enough to take care of her, will she love me enough to keep me dry?
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