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  #401  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Smack, It all comes to what you call a blue-water boat. If that means a boat designed exclusively for blewater sailing there are ones better than others but none is designed to do that as their main purpose. Such a boat, for instance, would have a 3.00m draft, since that is mot a problem for bluewater sailing and has many advantages in what regards sailing.

All boats are a compromise but assuming you mean by bluewater boat a boat that has a big safety margin sailing on "normal" latitudes at the right season I would say that almost all mass production cruisers of 40ft and over will have that margin. The bigger difference between them is that few come already rigged for that and the others you will have to command the needed options, or have the dealer install them. The reason those options, like a cutter rig, a removable stay or jack lines will not come standard with the boat is because it would make the boat unnecessarily inexpensive for the ones that don't need them.

If you want to increase your safety margin you will just buy a bigger boat. Today 50fts are designed to be sailed by a couple. And there are no small sailboat that can sail safely at the wrong latitudes at the wrong season at least without a much bigger risk factor. Even at the right latitude and wrong season it can be problematic to all small sailing boats.

It makes sense to say that a boat like this one is not a bluewater boat?:



or that it would be less of a bluewater boat than a smaller Caliber an Ericson a C&C a Tartan a Morgan a Cheoy Lee or a Pearson, or watever the boat.

Each case is a case, there are ones better than others, but making that distinction by brands makes mo sense unless that brand has no boats suited for offshore work. But even the MacGregor has a 65ft yacht. Do you mean that was not designed taking offshore sailing in mind, among other concerns? Or that it is not a better blue water boat than a Westsail 32ft?

Regards

Paulo
That's kind of the ironic thrust of this whole thread. For ages, across most sailing forums, boats in section 2 of that list were decried as "coastal only"...and painted as almost egg-shell fragile. Saying you were going to buy a "production boat" such as a non-First Bene to circumnavigate, or a Hunter to round the Horn would have earned you a very public lashing from the "blue-water" crowd. You would have been called a fool.

So, this thread is not at all intended to try to define (yet again) what makes a "true blue water boat". It's to collectively decide on the accepted "limits' of production boats.

Think about it from the newb's perspective. Lots of boats out there to buy - and they want to know where those boats fall on a realistic spectrum. More importantly, think about the very real danger of the "seamanship vs. boat" argument:

If I, as a newb boat buyer, purchase a Cabo Rico or Hinckley because those are the real deal for blue water and will keep me out of trouble because everyone says so - do I then put too much trust in the boat and let my own seamanship slide?

Even after all this time - I think thread still asks a very important question in this regard. Obviously, I'm a case study as I'm about to buy a production boat in section 2. And if she's in good shape, I'll have no fear of taking her anywhere except the high lats. But I also know I need to up my seamanship game, and be relatively conservative to do so. Those are good limits to be aware of.

PS - Paulo, where would you put some of the European Brands on this list such as Bavaria, etc.?
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  #402  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

whole heartly agree with the importance of seamanship and fitness as regards improving chances of survival in an survival storm. But would note boats differ in abilty to "care of you" when you are no longer able or willing to sail the vessel. Issues of how she handles and survives when hove too or fore running or trailing jordan series drogue. Will she survive a knockdown, pooping or g-d forbid pitch poling. Attention to suitable backing plates and chaff free runs is sometimes over looked. That walk through companion way or nature of construction of the lights on the hull may be a weakness. Think it goes beyond just the model of hull or expense of the infill.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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whole heartly agree with the importance of seamanship and fitness as regards improving chances of survival in an survival storm. But would note boats differ in abilty to "care of you" when you are no longer able or willing to sail the vessel. Issues of how she handles and survives when hove too or fore running or trailing jordan series drogue. Will she survive a knockdown, pooping or g-d forbid pitch poling. Attention to suitable backing plates and chaff free runs is sometimes over looked. That walk through companion way or nature of construction of the lights on the hull may be a weakness. Think it goes beyond just the model of hull or expense of the infill.
Out, that's a great point. And it's another wrinkle in this debate. I don't think anyone would argue with the point that a "heavier" boat should theoretically do better in extreme circumstances. But I go back to Sequitur's encounter of the F11 off Cape Horn. That Hunter did very, very well in about as gnarly a storm as one could imagine.

So, in this regard, the survival storm argument comes down to this: how conservatively you will sail (i.e. - avoiding such storms), the chances of encountering such a storm during your entire sailing career (see Hal Roth's equations on that), and whether you want to spend 99% of your sailing career in a boat that might do better in that 1% storm you might encounter.
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  #404  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
T...
Even after all this time - I think thread still asks a very important question in this regard. Obviously, I'm a case study as I'm about to buy a production boat in section 2. And if she's in good shape, I'll have no fear of taking her anywhere except the high lats. But I also know I need to up my seamanship game, and be relatively conservative to do so. Those are good limits to be aware of.

PS - Paulo, where would you put some of the European Brands on this list such as Bavaria, etc.?
As I said, I don't think it is a question of brands but a question of boats. Bavaria as other European and American mass production boats are well built and price has more to do with finish and quality of materials in the interior than with quality of all things that has to do with safety.

Bavaria has many models and as I said I would fell comfortably going bluewater in any mass production 40ft. Lower than that I would have to see boat by boat but I would say that I would fell safe going bluewater for instance on the Bavaria 36 (now 37) or on the Oceanis 37, if the boats were prepared for that. Just an example those two. As you know I had almost bought a Salona 38 and that one is also clearly a bluewater boat, as the Dehler 38 for instance.

Of course I am not saying this applies to all, it is just my personal criteria that has to do with my experience as sailor and my personal view on the subject that is almost coincident with the general opinion in what regards an European view, as it is expressed for instance in sailing magazines.

I would not have any problem in crossing the pond in one of those but I would have in any of the so called bluewater boats if they had a rig with more than 10 years or if the chain-plates were not replaced in the last 15 years and even so I would feel less safe than in a brand new boat, correctly prepared. You can find my view a bit odd but that view is shared by the insurance companies (that consider than an older boat is less safe) and they are not there to lose money and know well the subject.

Regards

Paulo
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  #405  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But I go back to Sequitur's encounter of the F11 off Cape Horn. That Hunter did very, very well in about as gnarly a storm as one could imagine.

So, in this regard, the survival storm argument comes down to this: how conservatively you will sail (i.e. - avoiding such storms), the chances of encountering such a storm during your entire sailing career (see Hal Roth's equations on that), and whether you want to spend 99% of your sailing career in a boat that might do better in that 1% storm you might encounter.
To quote from my new book:
Quote:
Without doubt, the most important criterion in offshore voyaging is a competent, cooperative and compatible crew. Without this, the best equipped and most seaworthy vessel is likely to have difficulty as conditions change, and one of the constants of life at sea is change. Competent crew can take a minimally equipped and barely capable vessel to the ends of the earth.
I strongly suggest that the boat chosen is much less important than are the crew and their seamanship.
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  #406  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Smack... O man I'm the guy with the Lancer 36, now I find out I can't sail in the ocean (lake boat)or out sight of land. Man I'm bumming. I thought sailing in a gale gave me and the Lancer 36 some street cred. Darn well I guess i will just pull her from the slip and find a lake she might not hit bottom in. (6 ft. draft and all)
Any way wasn't going to go all the way around but maybe I could be moved down to the light coastal boat list?

Brad
Lancer 36
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  #407  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by Bradhamlet View Post
Smack... O man I'm the guy with the Lancer 36, now I find out I can't sail in the ocean (lake boat)or out sight of land. Man I'm bumming. I thought sailing in a gale gave me and the Lancer 36 some street cred. Darn well I guess i will just pull her from the slip and find a lake she might not hit bottom in. (6 ft. draft and all)
Any way wasn't going to go all the way around but maybe I could be moved down to the light coastal boat list?

Brad
Lancer 36
Okay - where is your story of that BFS in a Lancer? I'm intrigued. Just remember, I have no clue about this stuff. I'm just ranking based on the amount of trash talk I've seen on the forums over the years.

But one can't argue with slammin' through a gale.

+++++++++++++++

And the "Non-Bluewater-Production-Boat" list (as revised by GreatWhite and Bradh):

1. Lake/Bay Boats (stay within the sight of land, seriously)
-Macgregor
-Yorktown
-Bayliner Bucaneer (although you can score a lot of babes with that boat...obviously...see attached):
-Chrysler

2. Light Coastal
-Lancer

3. Coastal Boats (that can still go anywhere on earth if you're careful and good)
-Catalina
-Hunter
-Beneteau
-Jenneau
-Irwin
-Endeavour
-Gulfstar
-O'day
-Cal
-J-Boats

4. Premium Coastal/Light Blue Water Capable (arguably perfectly suited for blue water passages, but considered by some as "too light")
-Caliber
-Ericson
-C&C
-Tartan
-Dehler
-Morgan
-Cheoy Lee
-Pearson
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by Sequitur View Post
To quote from my new book:

To quote from my new book:

Without doubt, the most important criterion in offshore voyaging is a competent, cooperative and compatible crew. Without this, the best equipped and most seaworthy vessel is likely to have difficulty as conditions change, and one of the constants of life at sea is change. Competent crew can take a minimally equipped and barely capable vessel to the ends of the earth.

I strongly suggest that the boat chosen is much less important than are the crew and their seamanship.
^^^This.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Another item one should look at to a degree, is the type of materials used in the interior. Boats are a bit like land yachts, ie RV's. they use a weekender, vacation, snow bird and live aboard std for how things are made. The weekender is less well built than a live aboard! A live aboard will be like your home, a weekender, probably the term trailer trash comes to mind.....it shouldnot. like boats, tanks are smaller, the use of press board vs solid wood in places occurs. is this good or bad? depends upon how one is going to use the item at hand!

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  #410  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

smack- Have very limited experience c/w other posters but
sailing old pearson424 accross mouth of buzzard bay ( bristol to M.V. Cllear day 15-20SW. boom knockdown by rogue wave
coming back from Bermuda ( good forecast) clear day running with poled genny. boom sail gone boat on side. ?microburst
transport from sw harbor to mass. fair forecast. boom 5d of misery ( caught edge of no name.)
I look at OPC even when I just go to the boat to sit and have a cup of coffee but weather is local. I know folks who have circumnavigated never seeing more than 30kt. but I seem to have a cloud over my head so plan accordingly. The gribs are great but weather is local. Actually think in some regards weather is more of an issue coastal as there are more local events (line squalls, thunderstorms etc.) that can riun your day.
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