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  #481  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Problem is I think on most boats autopilot does almost all the steering. Only go off autopilot for a minute or two to check balance every hour or so. In weather hide under the hard dodger with the remote. Guess as I get older becoming a whimp.
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  #482  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I don't mean to discount the argument - I'm just saying it's an issue of degrees. In other words, sickness will come on either boat if you're susceptible and the conditions are right. Then it simply becomes a question of:

1. Do you puke 2 times less on the older bluewater boat than on the newer production boat?

2. Does it take you 2 hours longer to start puking on the older bluewater boat than on the production boat?

So, I fully acknowledge that it's a factor. There is math involved. And I respect math.

But I certainly wouldn't want to sell my family on the notion that they'll be more "comfortable" (i.e. - not puke) on an older bluewater boat than they will be on our Hunter 40 in the same conditions. I just think the actual differences are marginal.

Again, I'll have to see when take our H40 out this spring.
With respect, I think you haven't sailed on a wide enough variety of boats to make that determination yet.

There's been quite a discussion among some friends of mine, about how seakindly a Hinckley SW42 was, during their race to Bermuda. These are guys that have been racing for 30 years on an incredible variety of boats.

Seakindlyness can be very important. Nausea and vomiting bring on fatigue, dehydration, and bad decision making. A ride that avoids or delays the onset of motion sickness, keeps the crew more rested, in better health, and making sound decisions.

I think the difference can be much more than marginal, between some designs and is well worth considering, if ocean sailing is the purpose of the boat.
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  #483  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Smack, check out "Seaworthiness the forgotten factor" by CA Marchaj. Not a production vs blue water argument but a size/design thing. I already loaned the copy I have out or I would loan it to you.
Bob P. and the Brewer books are good also.
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  #484  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

No argument there bubble. I've sailed maybe 8-9 boats since I started - only two of them on off-shore distance routes. Those two boats are pretty widely respected boats in the bluewater category: Pacific Seacraft 37 Crealock and Pearson 365 Ketch.

Granted, not Hinckleys, but I'm never going to have a Wally either. In any case, I've paid very close attention to the ride of both of these boats - trying to compare it to my production boat. And though I've not yet had our production boat out there, I'm not seeing a "huge" difference in ride (i.e. - comfort motion). I could absolutely be wrong. And I'll be the first to admit it when it happens on our H40. But, like I said above, I'm just a bit dubious. It's not a real selling point for me yet.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

The SW 42 weighs about 25,000 lbs. If you compare it to a 37'er weighing 15,000 lbs of course it will have more comfortable ride.

And just for the record I have sailed a lot of boats.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post

And just for the record I have sailed a lot of boats.
I would have imagined so.

(I used to have one of your boats, an Islander 32, Mk II. I loved that boat and I wish I still had it.)
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by ctl411 View Post
Smack, check out "Seaworthiness the forgotten factor" by CA Marchaj. Not a production vs blue water argument but a size/design thing. I already loaned the copy I have out or I would loan it to you.
Bob P. and the Brewer books are good also.
It is not necessary, it is an old book, it is free to download, I have posted a link on the interesting boat thread.

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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Smack,

As Bob is pointing out, the problem in these kinds of comparasons is the apples to cocoanuts nature of the discussion points. To really assess the motion comfort of your Hunter relative to a purpose built offshore cruiser, you should be comparing the motion of your boat to an offshore cruiser of a similar displacement rather than one of similar length. Similarly, to understand how comfortable a SW 42 is compared to a more modern performance cruising design, you might compare the motion of a SW 42 to a similar displacement boat like a J-160.

But there are also other pieces of the puzzle beyond simply length or displacement. To a very great extent hull shape (buoyancy distribution above and below the waterline), dampening, and weight distribution are the predominant factors in how a boat will feel.

And when you talk about a boat like the Pearson 365, from watching them underway, they have always appeared to be relatively rolly designs. That makes sense when you consider their comparatively round bottom design and shallow draft keel. In a classic sense, their motion might be considered 'seakindly' in that there are no sudden starts and stops.

Studies of motion sickness, have concluded that the reaction to motion varies pretty widely with the individual. One of the larger and more comprehesive study which I had seen, concluded that in near equal proportions, there were people for whom quick changes in motion are unacceptable but they can tolerate large amounts of reciprocating rotational motion. Another group can tolerate quick changes in motion but they cannot tolerate large amounts of reciprocating rotational motion. At third group cannot tolerate either type of motion. And a forth group cannot be made sick under any type of motion.

The point being that you, like me, may have a problem with slow rolling motion, while you may not have a problem with quick accelerations. I have never been seasick on my boat, even navigating down below on a beat into a chop, but experienced mild discomfort on a trawler yacht in surprisingly calm conditions.

Jeff
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  #489  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

This is why I like being the opinionated fool. You really learn a lot this way! Thanks guys.

The angle I'm taking here is not in any way "informed". It's just observation of a couple of things:

1. When "motion comfort" is discussed in these "bluewater vs. production" debates - it is generally done so with quite a bit of passion toward the idea that the "modern production boats" are less "comfortable" in a seaway and will make you sicker and more tired. At the extremes, I can certainly see how this might be true. But in the much broader context of the kinds of boats most of us will look to buy (older, used boats that aren't Hinckleys or Open 40s) - I just don't see this as a big differentiator. In other words, I don't think you can convince your family that they won't get sick on the bluewater boat because of its "higher motion comfort factor". We got sick on a bluewater boat within the first hour.

2. The way these two bluewater boats that I've sailed on performed, and the conditions under which they so performed, have been nothing that I would have been even remotely concerned about in our Hunter. This last trip had the most sporty conditions I've been in thus far offshore (25-30 knots and 8'-10' seas) - but were nowhere near scary. Both bluewater boats creaked and groaned (like I'd expect with virtually any older boat - but is always a point made about the quality of build of bluewater vs. production) - but held together just fine, with minor issues here and there (e.g. - the linear drive AP broke off its mounts on this trip and we had to hand-steer the second half of the trip.)

When I say that the differences in these typical arguments are negligible - this is what I mean. If the conditions are right, as Jeff has pointed out above, you're gonna get sick/uncomfortable regardless of the hull shape. And even on bluewater boats, stuff is going to flex and break. It's just going to take some very serious conditions, I think, for differences like this to become really apparent (if they do at all). So it just seems to me many of these arguments are about very little difference.

One last point I will make, however, is that of "solidity". This may be the same as motion comfort, I don't know - and may be more to Bob's point about displacement; But on both the Pearson and the PSC, I noticed that the force of dropping off a wave doesn't seem to shudder through the hull - what I assume to be "pounding". Yes, we still "pounded" with a lot of spray - but you don't feel it hammering through the boat. I'll be very interested to see if this is the case with our H40 in similar conditions. If it is, I'll just have to back off and steer a different course. But my hunch is that it won't be appreciably different.

(PS - In terms of displacement on the particular boats I'm comparing, our H40 is around 17,500 pounds, the PSC is around 16,200 pounds, and the Pearson is around 17,700 pounds)
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  #490  
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I think you will notice the difference and it will have more to do with hull shape than build quality. Chop that my old 37c cut through would rattle my teeth on the 37.5.
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