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Production Boats and the Limits

792K views 5K replies 235 participants last post by  Jeff_H 
#1 · (Edited)
We've seen the age-old debate regarding what's REALLY a blue-water boat. And that's cool and everything - but it seems to me that there is a tangible middle ground between coastal cruising and true blue water sailing. Furthermore, in my blissful ignorance, I'd say that quite a few sailors inhabit this aether plain.

Sure you can buy a Hinckley or a Brewer or a Tayana or Cheoy Lee and take them wherever the hell you wanna. But where exactly can you take a Catalina, a Hunter, an Irwin, a Beneteau, a Jenneau, even.....yes....even.....a MacGregor (dum-dum-duuuuum).

Do you make sure you never leave sight of land in these boats? Do you keep land 50 miles away? 100 miles? Do you run from a 40 knot squall? Do you live in morbid fear of encountering a freak 50 knot storm - where you're cool with it in an S&S design from 1927? Can you "outrun" such storms in these "new fangled keel" boats - where in a full-keel Formasa you just heave to and ride it out with a Dark-n-Stormy and a tiparillo in your hand?

Giu had a good write up comparing Beneteaus/Catalinas/Hunters from a "sailability" standpoint. And CD has had some great input regarding the capabilities of various production boats. And we've seen the exhaustive list of blue water boats with great input from Cam and Jeff_H.

Furthermore, Val and others have pointed out the critical elements in any heavy weather situation is actually the skipper and crew. And this makes a heap of sense too.

So, the question I'd like to pose to the sailing world is this: From the standpoint of dealing with the outer limits of "coastal" cruising - what are the best production boats and why?
 
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#201 ·
Brian,

Thanks for the link. Looks like a nice boat for its design intent. A couple of thousand lbs more disp/weight than I would like, a little too little draft by 1-2'.........

BUT, now I am talking about my needs and wants vs someone elses. If this was a style of boat I wanted, it appears to be one that I would want to look at, and probably have on a short list of boats to purchase.

marty
 
#202 ·
smack,

You posted while I was typing!

O'day built MANY designs. ranging from Optis or an equal, all the way to a 39 and 40' boat that was a jeanneau design that "WAS" ocean going oriented! Catalina also has designs that are lake, ie an 8' Sabot?!?! that produce/ed all the way up to mid 40 something foot boats that have the ability to go offshore etc. Beneteau and Jeanneau also in france build 20-30' boats that would fall into the lake/bay catagory. Along with both having boats in the 40-almost 60' range that would go offshore.

It is probably better to go by price point than actual size/design or build quality. I think we all know a $100K boat at 25' is going to/should be a better built/designed boat than a $100K 32'ish boat.

Heck, there are mini-transats that are 22'ish feet long that are ment to "race" across oceans in a single handed mode!

I could probably keep going, but am at spouses office, need to go home and let winston out of his cage to do his duties...... Hopefully this makes some semblence of sense in this whole thing.

Marty
 
#203 ·
smack
I think it's not that clear cut. The smaller O'day, Catalina, and maybe a few others are nowhere as capable as larger designs from the same builders. I think an O'day 35 would be a good coastal cruiser but not necessarily their smaller boats. By the same token I think a smaller Hunter should maybe not be considered for coastal work while the larger ones are fine. I think a few builders produce smaller boats with the thought that nobody would want to take them offshore so build accordingly, but they know somebody will want to take a Catalina 42 farther so build it differently. The Macgregor is in the right category though,:D and CS ( Maine Sail has a 36T and I have a 27) are not listed:(
Brian
 
#204 ·
Sorry about missing stuff - I'm winging it. There's also Newport, Capitol, Dufor, Gibsea, Peterson, Farr, J-Boats, even Bruce Roberts, etc. but I have no idea where these all fall.

Okay, so continuing to narrow it down, let's keep length in the 35'-45' range (roughly). Keep in mind that we're talking about limits in this thread. That is, which of these brands in this length start to fail in the above categories? And which should we add?

Make your changes to the list and let's see where we end up. What the hell?
 
#207 ·
Looks like Brian and I were typing similar answers at the same time too!

Also, do not quote me on this, as I recall, smacky, didn't you want this to include "current" produce boats vs non current or out of production, closed shop boats. Hence an O'day would NOT be listed, nor a cal, ranger, and maybe for that matter, even my 25yr old Jeanneau?!?!?! that was built two bk's ago, ie bangor punta to someone in france to IIRC when group Beneteau bought them. Logo changed between BP owner ship and the french group too, starting the "Sun _______" named boats, be them sun shine, sun fiz, odysess etc.

then 3-5 more posts while I am typing, i'm either way slow, or you guys are faster!

Marty
 
#209 · (Edited)
Looks like Brian and I were typing similar answers at the same time too!

Also, do not quote me on this, as I recall, smacky, didn't you want this to include "current" produce boats vs non current or out of production, closed shop boats. Hence an O'day would NOT be listed, nor a cal, ranger, and maybe for that matter, even my 25yr old Jeanneau?!?!?! that was built two bk's ago, ie bangor punta to someone in france to IIRC when group Beneteau bought them. Logo changed between BP owner ship and the french group too, starting the "Sun _______" named boats, be them sun shine, sun fiz, odysess etc.

Marty
Okay...ground rules...how about this...

Go to Yachtworld and search for boats 1984 and newer between $25K and $120K, 35'-45'...all over the world. Let's keep it in a 25 year range and this price limit.**

Rate these boats that turn up.

The reason I say this is my hunch is that most of us average schmos will be looking at boats in that range. The issue is that there is so little good info out there on how to judge them.

So - it would be cool to have some kind of general ranking...still in production or not. We're not talking new boats here. We're talking used - which is the majority of the market. Even so, the reasons behind the ratings will give everyone a better idea on how to judge even the newer boats.

For example, the Bene O38 story gave me a new insight on how to think about production boats in light of their angle of vanishing stability, etc.

**PS - I'm not shopping personally. I am into the charter thing. But I was looking last year and had a hard time figuring out what was a "good boat" for robust coastal cruising and what was not.
 
#210 ·
I would like to hear from folks that have direct experience offshore in a storm with a current model Catalina, Hunter, Bene or Jeaunneau sailboat in the 35'+ range. I looked at all these brands at the last boat show and following what I've learned here on this sight regarding bluewater building techniques, I cannot tell if they are up to snuff. The boats have full liners with no way to tell ,without damage, if the bulkheads are tabbed or are bonded to the liner with equal strength. It not like it used to be, where you could grab a flashlight and look in a lazaret or behind a cupboard to find raw fiberglass and tabbed wood etc. The pamplets and websites of these boatbuilders don't hint on much in their construction.

CruisingDad,

What has been your experience in the rough stuff with your catalina 400? Did you have any oilcaning or movment of cabnetry take place?

I have looked at a Catalina 387 and it felt like a tank. It seemed to be built very well. Had a huge bilge and lots of storage.
 
#211 ·
Smack,

Now in reality your are talking design imputs. IE a prefastnet IOR or a post fastnet IOR as I have. vs one that is more recent IMS/IRC design, or even further back to the CCA designs.

Then you have to look at other items, ie handholds, do they come standard, or do I add them where "I" would like them........Where is teh cabin entry set up like, ie down the the cockpit floor, or up at seat hight such that waves from the rear will not put as much water inside!

AO now you need to start includeing the european cat A, B, C design specs, along with predesessor rules after fastent to current........

Then of course, you have the deeper is better keel, to shallow longer is better, or even go back to the Atkins double ended westsnail designs.........

take you rpick, throw the dice, hope for double 7's..........

Time to go get winston, last of sheryls clients are here, anyway, I amsure he will be happpy out of his crate, and going for a walk in the drizzle.

Please note, other may be typing as I am, my answer is worth what you paid for it!

Have a good one, along with a tall frosty one!

marty
 
#212 ·
Hillster,

There is a Jeanneau 49iP in Seattle at local dealer, Ruby Slippers, that went from here in seattle, by an owner of the dealership no less, with wife and twin daughter to Oz and back over 2 yrs. Not sure what winds etc they met. But they had a choice of Jeanneau, X, Tartan, C&C, deahler to name a few of the "NEW" boats they sell.

They have/had a blog you can look up probably via google, or go to the MarineServicenter.com site, and a link is there. ALong with www.jeanneau-owners.com has a link somewhere too. IIRC go to boat info and there is a link to blogs etc.

Marty

Marty
 
#213 ·
Hillster,

There is a Jeanneau 49iP in Seattle at local dealer, Ruby Slippers, that went from here in seattle, by an owner of the dealership no less, with wife and twin daughter to Oz and back over 2 yrs. Not sure what winds etc they met. But they had a choice of Jeanneau, X, Tartan, C&C, deahler to name a few of the "NEW" boats they sell.

They have/had a blog you can look up probably via google, or go to the MarineServicenter.com site, and a link is there. ALong with www.jeanneau-owners.com has a link somewhere too. IIRC go to boat info and there is a link to blogs etc.

Marty

Marty
 
#214 ·
Holy crap. It's just all too complicated.

I'm buying a Mac.

PS - So let's nail down a respectable age range. Jeff mentioned the 20 year limit of the 038. Should we say 15 years? 10?

PSS - Winston - I wasn't talking to you. Stop barking and go pee.
 
#216 ·
There are a lot of good boats out there that fit the criteria older than 15 or 20 years in my opinion.
Here's a list: Rival 32 to 45
Rustler 36 and not sure what other sizes
Contessa 32 and larger
Sadler 32 and larger
Etap
Feeling (Elite) by Kirie
Westerly over 30
Hallberg-Rassy
Hustler 30
Sweden Yachts
Sigma
Moody
Nicholson 31,35 (Camper & Nicholson)
X-Yachts
Swan
Bavaria
Contest
Wauquiez
Amel (Sharki)
S & S 34 (by several builders - how many have
circumnavigated?)
Oyster
Standfast
Hanse
Kalik (40)
Saga 40
Somebody has to stand up for europe since Giu left.:D
And additions from North America
Columbia
Bristol
Whitby 42
CS 30,33,36T,36 Merlin, and 40
I stayed away from the obscure makes:D :D
Brian
 
#217 ·
Brian,

If you are going to include Bavaria in the European brands, better include Jeanneau and Beneteau also. As bavaria is generally speaking a bit cheaper build quality than J, B and Catalina, more in line with Hunter or a bit better.

Boat types I would not include in the lets cross an ocean, the older IOR pinched stern designs, well maybe a few...........the Morris Yachts "M series" or equal designs like the Alerion..........

Some of the J-boat designs would fit and work well too.

IIRC the most popular boat in the world ARC, was a Jeanneau SO 49i. Ea of the last 2 or 3 ARC's, the most popular brand boat was also a Jeanneau, with Beneteau right behind. One year the most popular model IIRC was the Jeanneau SO37, with 4 or 5 of them. Not sure how many were going into charter after wards.........that is another story. From what I understand tho, the boats being counted have to be sailed by individual owners, not chartered owners! ie sunsail/moorings or equal. Don't quote me on this tho.

A jeanneau Sun Rise, did a solo nonstop circumnavigate 3'ish yrs ago. Including going around Cape Horn!

Obviously typical production boats will do more than we expect!

marty
 
#218 ·
I was trying to include the European brands nobody had yet mentioned.
Another thought - does anyone regularly read British magazines - Yachting World, Yachting Monthly, or Practical Boat Owner? I don't have any around to quote from but when they test an American style boat (imported) their take is interesting - rougher areas they sail in being great for boat evolution. I would guess the Aussies are the same. I don't think they have many of the "flimsy production boats" that we bash regularly (nameless brands:D ).
Brian
 
#221 ·
Sorry, smack... gotta disagree with you there. I'd say the only boats on Brian's list that would be on nearly everyone's "bluewater list" would be the Whitby and the Amel.

The rest (except for Oyster) look to me like boats that have had significant production runs at some point -
 
#220 ·
Practical sailor in April 2009 issue had an article
"Bargain Voyagers
PS picks a few recession-proof
cruisers worthy of sweat equity."

Here is a list:
ALLIED PRINCESS 36
BRISTOL 35.5C
ENDEAVOUR 37
FREEDOM 36
O’DAY 37
S2 11.0
C&C LANDFALL 38
NIAGARA 35
Tartan 37 (CB)

All of them are production boats of the past...
 
#222 ·
Just though I'd add that my buddy Dave is now 3/4 of the way to BVI from New York, in a Cataline 38, IIRC. It's an older one, with the tumble-home hull. (The hull is wider at the water line than at the deck, by quite a few inches.) He stopped in Bermuda for a few days along the way, I believe he was fixing a few things while there, not sure if it was electrical or what.

Here's the SPOT on where he was this morning. (Zoom out to see where.)
27.5408,-63.61193 - Google Maps

Regards,
Brad

Regards,
Brad
 
#223 ·
Really Faster? Wow. I honestly figured the Moodys, Swans, HR, etc. were on bw lists for sure.

To be clear, the division in the typical "production boat" discussion is that it is centered around boats that one WOULDN'T qualify as bw capable. I just want to make sure we're not conflating the idea of "production" with the idea of "blue water capable".

Okay - my bad. So then where do these fit into the list? And should we change "Non-Production/High End Blue Water" to "High End Coastal/Light Blue Water"?

1. Lake/Bay Boats
-O'day
-Macgregor
-Lancer
-Yorktown

2. Coastal Boats
-Catalina
-Hunter
-Beneteau
-Jenneau
-Irwin
-Cal

3. Premium Coastal (Light Blue Water Capable)
-IP
-Caliber
-Ericson
-C&C
-Tartan
-Dehler
-Endeavour
-Gulfstar
-Morgan
-Cheoy Lee
-Pearson

4. Non-Production/High End Blue Water
-Tayana
-Hinckley
-Cabo Rico
-Oyster
-etc.
 
#225 ·
Really Faster? Wow. I honestly figured the Moodys, Swans, HR, etc. were on bw lists for sure.
Oops.... you got me there..... :eek:

but still there are several on the list that certainly qualify as production boats, that wouldn't necessarily be "on the list" but many examples of which have done significant passages.
 
#226 ·
Smack,

Not sure I'm qualified to answer that. I think it was done to "game" some of the racing rules.

Regards,
Brad
 
#229 · (Edited)
Hey great - no worries. This is NOT a blue water list. Actually it is the opposite.

Take a look at the first post.

The bottom line is that SOME people do indeed come here looking for advice on BW boats - and there's PLENTY of info and opinions on that. But, it seems, MOST people BUY and/or OWN "standard" production boats.

So the question of this thread is..what are the limits of those production boats? How do you categorize them in terms of safety, capability, etc.? Where and why do they fail the "BW test"?

Personally, my main interest lies in categories 1 and 2, and maybe a few boats in 3 - as those are the most prominent boats on the used market, which, of course, makes up the vast majority of the boat buying market.

So, because of the dearth of info on how to judge/compare these boats and their limits, I thought it was worth a chat.

In this regard, how would you organize the list?
 
#230 ·
Moody built a great number of cruiser/racer type boats not uniquely "bluewater" in style. They were one of Britain's largest volume builders, as was Westerly. While the Contessa 32 has proven to be a great boat in rough weather it was not conceived to be bluewater but a racer/cruiser. The larger Contessas were as well. The Nicholson 31 was a long keel boat but the 35 was fin and skeg. Westerly built boats to 48 feet (I think the UK's largest volume builder) and none were conceived as bluewater really. The Swans I was thinking of were the early S&S designs which were production cruiser/racers and in my opinion (regardless of what Jeff might say:D ) much nicer than the newer breed designed by Ron Holland with the angular decks. The Hustler 30, Sigma, and Sadlers were all production racer/cruisers (David Sadler designed the Contessa 32), Kirie's boats (Elite, Feeling) were all cruiser/racers, the Oysters I was thinking of were the smaller older ones (the price range we're looking at wouldn't allow the newer ones), Sweden Yachts were cruiser/racers, and the S&S 34 was produced in both UK and Australia I believe in fair numbers - several have circumnavigated including a few records for youngest and one non-stop but the boat wasn't designed for this.
Brian
 

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#231 ·
Here is a slight revision. Regarding 1 and 2, these lists are massive, many more options than proven blue water capable boats

1. Lake/Bay Boats
-O'day
-Macgregor
-Lancer
-Yorktown

2. Coastal Boats
-Catalina
-Hunter
-Beneteau
-Jenneau
-Irwin
-Endeavour
-Gulfstar

3. Premium Coastal (Light Blue Water Capable)
-Caliber
-Ericson
-C&C
-Tartan
-Dehler
-Morgan
-Cheoy Lee
-Pearson

4. Blue Water Capable
-Cal (32-40-46-48)
-CSY
-Westsail
-Flika
-IP
-Tayana
-Hinckley
-Cabo Rico
-Oyster
-Hylas
-many of the J boats

Many others - see Mahina.com list
 
#232 · (Edited)
Here is a slight revision. Regarding 1 and 2, these lists are massive, many more options than proven blue water capable boats

1. Lake/Bay Boats
-O'day
-Macgregor
-Lancer
-Yorktown

2. Coastal Boats
-Catalina
-Hunter
-Beneteau
-Jenneau
-Irwin
-Endeavour
-Gulfstar

3. Premium Coastal (Light Blue Water Capable)
-Caliber
-Ericson
-C&C
-Tartan
-Dehler
-Morgan
-Cheoy Lee
-Pearson
Very cool - great. So since this is not a BW thread - let's just nuke 4 and continue to populate 1-3.

Next?

PS - though I like them in general, I've heard that Cheoy Lee's are really spotty. Is that true?
 
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