SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
Status
Not open for further replies.

Production Boats and the Limits

792K views 5K replies 235 participants last post by  Jeff_H 
#1 · (Edited)
We've seen the age-old debate regarding what's REALLY a blue-water boat. And that's cool and everything - but it seems to me that there is a tangible middle ground between coastal cruising and true blue water sailing. Furthermore, in my blissful ignorance, I'd say that quite a few sailors inhabit this aether plain.

Sure you can buy a Hinckley or a Brewer or a Tayana or Cheoy Lee and take them wherever the hell you wanna. But where exactly can you take a Catalina, a Hunter, an Irwin, a Beneteau, a Jenneau, even.....yes....even.....a MacGregor (dum-dum-duuuuum).

Do you make sure you never leave sight of land in these boats? Do you keep land 50 miles away? 100 miles? Do you run from a 40 knot squall? Do you live in morbid fear of encountering a freak 50 knot storm - where you're cool with it in an S&S design from 1927? Can you "outrun" such storms in these "new fangled keel" boats - where in a full-keel Formasa you just heave to and ride it out with a Dark-n-Stormy and a tiparillo in your hand?

Giu had a good write up comparing Beneteaus/Catalinas/Hunters from a "sailability" standpoint. And CD has had some great input regarding the capabilities of various production boats. And we've seen the exhaustive list of blue water boats with great input from Cam and Jeff_H.

Furthermore, Val and others have pointed out the critical elements in any heavy weather situation is actually the skipper and crew. And this makes a heap of sense too.

So, the question I'd like to pose to the sailing world is this: From the standpoint of dealing with the outer limits of "coastal" cruising - what are the best production boats and why?
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Smackdaddy—

You can take any boat hundreds of miles from land, given the right weather conditions. Most storms move fast enough that unless you have sufficient warning, out running them isn't a real possibility.

Most boats, even production ones, are tougher than the deck monkeys crewing on them. Older, heavier, more seakindly designs are going to be easier on the deck monkeys than some of the newer, beamier designs.

As for what is the best production boat... it depends... What are you planning on using the boat for, and where?
 
#3 ·
Take a good look at what the sailing purists call an offshore capable boat, then look at any modern catamaran or tri. I think you make an excellent point, many production costal sailors are much more capable than the sailors sailing them, regardless as to how far off shore they are. That said, many of those so called production costal cruisers have no business being away from the dock, let alone off shore,imho,
 
#4 ·
That is a post to open up a smack of worms...

I'd venture to say it not so much the boat in a majority of the cases, it is the experience of the crew that handles going through it.

I know you read up on SA and the Volvo Races etc - serious fricking money on supposedly fast - ocean rated vessels. Look at the carnage they experience. One could argue that well - they are race boats but the crew onboard are 10X more experienced than the casual off-shore sailor. The combo is killer and they purposely go the margin...

It has been annotated time and time again - its not actually the boat in most cases it is the preparedness of the crew, and knowing when to back down. Your C-27 actually can make it across the gulf with no issue - as long as you pay attention to the weather windows etc. When snuff blows up behind you - its the crew / skipper - knowing what the behavior of your boat is and how she should be handled.

No such thing as a boat rated for the X versions of what mother nature throws out. When you have a scenario they waves and wind conditions promote scenarios where the wave height factor alone is 4 times your waterline length..it becomes a man over mother nature as that is all you can do..

I know you are kinda asking as you are looking to upgrade. There is no real formula to it - the only two constants are:

1: How well do you know the boat (not just handling either, where is everything, how much can she pump out if breaking waves etc.)

2: Your perseverance. A good majority of lost boats in distressful scenarios is the giving up aspect.

Sure some boats don't add up but you'll know because they are not worth sailing in 20 kt wind conditions before you set the first triple reef... all the rest - well.... you'll come to your conclusions
 
#4,382 ·
...but the crew onboard are 10X more experienced than the casual off-shore sailor. The combo is killer and they purposely go the margin.
Is that really true? I'm fairly certain in the last VOR there was at least one boat where most of the crew had never circumnavigated and many had not been offshore. I also believe that many of the boats had portions of crew who had never crossed the equator.

I realize the crews for those races have tons of racing experience, but racing experience is not the same thing as sailing in the southern ocean, much less racing in it. Normal shore racing is generally called off if the weather is beyond certain limits, and true offshore racers are a small small portion of the racing community.

I'd wager 90% of surviving/winning in those 65s falls on the skipper, his weather predicting capabilities, and his belief in what the crew and boat can take. I would also guess that most skippers who have circumnavigated have experiences that prepare them better for ocean racing than some of the race crew they populated those boats with.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Yeah Jody - the whole "can of worms" thing? Kind of my schtick. But I do think it's a good discussion. Great perspective by the way...oh, and you nailed me on the motivation BTW!

Wes - you got the point...it's really riffing off the "purist" ideal. We've talked a ton about that. But, seriously, who's a purist? I'll wager most sailors are not. They're in the middle trying to figure out where that edge is. And I'm sure there's a wealth of experience on this forum of those that have been there in a production boat.

Dog, I get your point...but rate boats, dude. That's the game.
 
#6 ·
My boat, Freedom 28 is certainly “production”, however is not as mass production, as others, mentioned here.
They have proven offshore record, and I, with my limited experience, feel quite confident that boat can take more than I can so far. However, my boat designed with long travel in mind. On another side yearly Freedom 32, which have all attributes of modern boat – fin keel, spade rudder, fun to sail, big interior, did quite a few long, cross ocean trips.
There was Catalina 27 which went around a globe, staying south of Africa. I run across an article somewhere on internet where owner described all modifications he did to the boat. List was extensive, however all things were typical – adding handholds, reinforcing here and there, etc…
 
#7 ·
We've seen the age-old debate regarding what's REALLY a blue-water boat. And that's cool and everything - but it seems to me that there is a tangible middle ground between coastal cruising and true blue water sailing. Furthermore, in my blissful ignorance, I'd say that quite a few sailors inhabit this aether plain.
SM, I like :)
Perhaps it's worth mentioning that the vast majority of wreckages and carnage happen on the coast - not even along the coast but virtually on it. The boat may have played a part, but I doubt that "blue water" was the deciding factor. Crew, maybe? Maintenance, maybe? Alcohol?

The statistic that makes me smile is from this year's Vendée Globe; folks sailing single-handed around the world at infernal speeds. Some 32 skippers started, 11 finished. Along the route one found them capsized, hauled into remote islands for safety or repair, rudderless, keel-less, demasted, and with torn sails. What joy it must be!
Vendée Globe Ranking

I mention it only because it is often said that racing - as in "motor racing" - advances technology for ordinary cars. I don't see many trends in these ocean races advancing the game for the rest of us. In areas perhaps, such as electronics, but as a general direction?

This is a little sad because meanwhile, the original field of blue water cruising has been left behind. There has been so little development that you can fully understand the "old school" swearing by the old shoes - it isn't as if newer boats have made a great advance on blue water.

In fact, it is the "coastal" cruiser that has taken the greater strides: roomier, much more reliable both structurally and in equipment; easier to handle, more nimble to maneuver. It is not surprising that some want to bring those advantages with them and travel further afield - and to be honest, it works most of the time, doesn't it?
 
#9 ·
SM, I like :)
I don't see many trends in these ocean races advancing the game for the rest of us. In areas perhaps, such as electronics, but as a general direction?
I don't think this is right. Roller furling and self steering certainly have made great strides, and these offshore races have had a large impact on that.

Likewise, I think hull shape has been impacted as well. I know you were talking about so-called "blue water," and not coastal, and arguably the changes in hull shape have impacted production boats more directly. But that said, far far more sailors sail coastal than blue water, and modern production boats are starting to look a lot like the Vendee Globe boats, or at least a lot more like them than they are more traditional and older designs.

I suspect building materials and methods have been impacted too, but I don't really have specific knowledge on that.

And Smacky, if you're planning on sailing the coasts, I think any of the recent vintage production boats will do ya. Having had both, I think a big difference between the two "types" (mass produced and more limited production/semi-custom) are how they are outfitted coming from the factory. Mass produced boats are not as well equipped coming from the dealer, and I don't mean just in terms of goodies. Handholds, extra tankage, serious equipment, better materials on ancillary items, and stuff like that. But as you've noted, plenty of mass produced boats have gone far afield. But even aside from trans-oceanics, many many of these boats have cruised the Bahamas and gone to Bermuda and back. Tons of them actually. If that's your expected use or something comparable, they're fine (properly equipped and maintained of course).
 
#8 ·
^ ^ ^

Good points. The fact is that very few people do blue water sailing...it's the equivalent of crossing the Sahara on motorbike. Most (and I mean 95-99% of all recreational sailors) do coastal, and a lot of them do daysails or gunkholing. It's no wonder I bought a custom steel boat: when there's no market for ANY "bluewater capable boat", the arguments about full keels, skegs and Solent rigs becomes largely academic.

There is no upside in creating oceanic boats for daysailers, because they will inevitably be heavier (because of necessary tankage), narrower (because of outboard stowage areas and the need to have handholds within arms' reach), and will have fewer or more conservative amenities (due to repair issues, energy draws, etc.). You can make any production cruiser into a both with these attributes, but at the risk of loading it down and still having the wrong hull.

It's no wonder people are still buying 1970s plastic cruisers, Island Packets and other "old shoes", because there are very few "new shoes" that can meet that "falling off a 25 foot wave without snapping a bulkhead or killing the crew" requirement. Nor are there cruisers who expect a regular diet of that sort of weather.

Look through the pages of National Geographic and Ocean Navigator and see what the high-latitude, truly "independent of the shore" boats look like. They have different shapes, skegs, workshops, padeyes, unfashionably high lifelines or pipes, welded or through-bolted lash-down points, massive arches holding mounted reels of stern anchor rode, and down in the boat, massive tanks cross-connected with manual pumps.

None of which your average Beneteau owner wants, needs or frankly, would understand or recognize, because they are never more than a hundred miles from a marina or a SAR service.

Which is fine.

So, unless you can buy one of the semi-custom production boats that are inherently this way, like a Shannon, some Moodys, the Swans, etc., I would say that there is NO current production boat that meets bluewater capable requirements. Not among the advertisers in the sailing magazine, anyway!

That should rile a few folks...

Having said that, the closest bets probably come from small yards in South Africa and New Zealand and even in France and Germany (although not as much as even 15 years ago), where "local conditions" are frequently so rough that the boats there have to be built to resist them in a fashion not necessary in North America.
 
#82 ·
^ ^ ^

None of which your average Beneteau owner wants, needs or frankly, would understand or recognize, because they are never more than a hundred miles from a marina or a SAR service.
I'm usually one of the first to bash Bendy-toys, but I have friends in the UK that have sailed a First 345 for over twenty years. They've crossed the Atlantic twice, sailed the east and west coasts of Greenland, visited Jan Mayen land, circumnavigated Iceland, spent several summers above the Arctic circle in Norway and Russia, and sailed to Svalbard twice (I was with them when we crossed 80N), in addition to many thousands of miles of coastal crusing. The boat is in good shape and still going strong.

To SmackDaddy's OP -- you can probably take almost any boat anywhere...IF you know what you're doing and do it at the right time of year, are properly equipped, etc., etc. Taking light production day sailers to the Arctic (or other exteme places) obviously carries increased risks, but it can be done.
 
#11 ·
Bluewater boats...always, heavy, narrow, with handholds everywhere. Handholds everywhere...really? So let's look at some really nice boats, some of the "flagships" shown in the magazines....not some little dinky 30-40 footer.
Maybe 70 ft ...the interiors never show handholds...on most you can't reach the overhead. These are not blue water boats?
 
#12 ·
Believe it or not, mate - they are not!
Or, they are not, until they have the necessary grips fitted. I checked out a few and rejected them when it was obvious that I'd be thrown from wall to wall.
A friend of mine did better: at the boat show, he asked about the strength of the table base; he made sure to ask again, to really commit the salesmen, then "ooops!" he pretended that a violent sea sent him flying, and the table ended up in the corner. After that, the salesman was more timid about his claims.
 
#13 ·
So how about one a little bigger...may be 100 ft? The boat is wider, overhead higher, and nothing to hang on to. (Personally, I would like something to hang onto, but what I'm trying to point out is that sometimes our general concept of what is a bluewater boat is a bit limited. Surely, these multimillion dollar boats are more than coastal boats.
 
#14 ·
Yes, I know what you're driving at; one can be too bombastic. Still, even 100 ft is nothing in a real ocean, you will not be taking leisurely strolls about without holding something - and that is before a real storm arrives. I almost broke a guy's knee last year, being stupid: he was sitting on the step to the cockpit and instead of asking him to move I thought I could sneak past. A freak wave bounced me on top of him - I still recall his screams. The wind might have been, well, just beyond a strong breeze?

Somewhere, there is a video online of a tourist ship, many hundred tons, hundreds of passengers, caught in bad weather along the coast. The bar is smashed, the lounges are cleared and all passengers are sent to their cabins because they cannot keep still in the open areas. Crew are leaping from the one fixed point to the next.

I think you'll find that the multimillion dollar yachts you mention are in fact crewed from one cruise area to the next, with the actual owners rarely boarding except when in port or cruising in nice, smooth waters.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Okay - so we've seemingly settled back into the "blue water" debate...hull design, hand holds, spade rudders, hoping for a "freak" wave to "throw" you onto a nice looking crew wench, having to throw down $7.5M for a 100' yacht at a boat show because you broke the table pretending to be in a storm....that kind of thing.

But the focus here is the question of how far would you guys push a production boat - and which of those will handle it well. For example, Daniel mentions that scads of sailors take production boats down to Bermuda/Bahamas/etc.

So maybe another way to frame this question is...where does "blue water" start? Is it 10 miles off shore? 100 miles? Is it being farther than a half-day sail from land? What if your route requires a 4+ day passage in open water? And which production boats start falling out of favor as these numbers go up?

Daniel - how far would you push your Bene? What's the edge for you? Os?

(PS - Os, what do you sail? I can't tell from the pic. BTW - sweet avatar dude. Looks like Kermit has just spotted a waterfall.)
 
#16 ·
Okay - so we've seemingly settled back into the "blue water" debate...
Daniel - how far would you push your Bene? What's the edge for you? Os?

(PS - Os, what do you sail? I can't tell from the pic. BTW - sweet avatar dude. Looks like Kermit has just spotted a waterfall.)
Apologies, Smack! I am on the same tack as you; production boats can be stretched. It was just the handholds that got me, not the narrow boat etc.

Uhmmm, my boat.. can't you see from the avatar it is a 3x3 raft?
I am a little embarassed to say otherwise, especially after the debate above.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Now THAT'S a good summation! Thanks Daniel! And I totally agree on the whole "apologizing for your boat" thing. It's a crock. This is one of the main reasons I'm exploring this question. Personally, I like the production boats. And I think they've been maligned beyond what really makes sense. Sure, there's a level of truth in the criticism - but it's not an all-or-nothing debate.

Me? There's no way in hell I'd follow Childress' lead and take my C27 around the world. No freakin' way. I don't think I'd feel too comfortable taking it beyond a day's sail out to be honest (it's age notwithstanding, but just its size and configuration). But I'm not too interested either in buying a full-keel tank and continually putting up with slow, cumbersome sailing for that very small chance of getting caught in a nasty storm*. All that for being able to simply say I have a "blue water boat"? No thanks.

I appreciate you taking the time to expound a bit. It's definitely helpful.

So - with the feedback from Daniel and Giu - the Benes seem to be the leading contender in the production boat smackdown. Fast and tough and reliable enough for hops across the pond. That's sayin' something.

Any Irwin/Hunter/Catalina/O'Day/etc. owners out there with similar viewpoints?

(*Disclaimer - this is the opinion of a loud-mouthed newbie that has only sailed 3 boats in his celebrated 10 month sailing career on a lake, Catalina, Hunter and O'day. So this is all purely based on what said sailor has read and heard from other sailors. At the same time, said sailor is fully confident in his capabilities as a sailor to sink ANY boat out there - blue water or no.)
 
#19 ·
Now THAT'S a good summation! Thanks Daniel! And I totally agree on the whole "apologizing for your boat" thing.
Smack, I saw this and wondered if "apologise" was a misinterpretation of my "embarassed to say" - so just in case: after arguing how well almost any boat could do, I wasn't going to fezz up and admit that mine is "blue water", only three years old and hardly inexpensive. That was what I was shy about, in case someone thought rambling about handholds was snobbery :eek: :eek:

So OK, mine is an Ovni 395, with a lot of go-anywhere gear. Also, I go anywhere, have lived in it for a year traveling around (not just now), will cross north past the Polar Circle this summer, then straight south through Europe, and hopefully around New Year my address should be the Americas. The longest/furthest I have been without dropping anchor so far is 10 days at sea. It is not a snobbish boat, but much thought went into safety, self-sufficiency and such. There is a distant photo in my profile.
And, to be sure, it wouldn't worry me to try in a much less dedicated boat. In any case, Smackdaddy, I am as capable as you at sinking any boat, anywhere - guaranteed.
:) :)
 
#20 ·
The bene is no better than a Catalina - the Catalina no better than the Bene. I think there are some models of both that are distasteful. I like the older Catalinas and Benes better than some of the new ones - but that is just my personal opinion. But for anyone that has not seen some pics of Dan's boat... you cannot tell me that is not a sweet ride (even without the BBQ's). Why wouldn't you take that boat anywhere within reason?? Same can be said of many/most production boats over 38 feet or so. I would feel comfortable taking my boat to most distant locations... but again I have been making and have made many modifications. From solar panels and arch to revamped electricl system, and many other changes, this ain't your typical out of the box C400!



That being said, you can take most production boats anywhere. I guess you could take one straight out of the box and circle the world, but it would take more seamanship and more luck than you might need for a Valiant of similar size. In order to reduce the need for luck and/or seamanship skills, you can start making changes to the boat like better portholes, handholds, lifelines, tankage, cabinets, tankage, cabinets for storage, positive latching floorboards, tankage, tabbed bulkheads or reinforced bulkheads, cabinets, etc (and not to forget to add tankage). By the time you have made all these changes, it might have been cheaper to just buy a traditional bluewater boat! Maybe not. But there are also many positives of production boats... cost not necessarily one of them.

However, if I was certain of making far destinations beyond a 5 day weather window, I really would start looking at boats outside of the typical production line. I personally draw the line at 5 days because beyond that, it is very difficult (if not alltogether impossible) to guess the weather. At 5 days, you also start really pushing into the tankage limit on most production boats without modification (again, my personal limit WITHOUT modification). But I stress that unless you are certain to make those jumps, I probably would not do it. I would buy the boat that is comfortable on the hook (as a live aboard) first and foremost. That is where 99% of your time is spent.

I believe that most production boats of a reasonable size will, with some amount of luck and good seamanship, go to distant ports. The questin typically is not whether the boat can get you there, it is whether the captain can. It is hard to appreciate this statement until you have weathered your first good blow beyond the reach of a VHF and you really are on your own.

- CD
 
#24 ·
The bene is no better than a Catalina - the Catalina no better than the Bene. I think there are some models of both that are distasteful. I like the older Catalinas and Benes better than some of the new ones - but that is just my personal opinion. But for anyone that has not seen some pics of Dan's boat... you cannot tell me that is not a sweet ride (even without the BBQ's). Why wouldn't you take that boat anywhere within reason?? Same can be said of many/most production boats over 38 feet or so. I would feel comfortable taking my boat to most distant locations... but again I have been making and have made many modifications. From solar panels and arch to revamped electricl system, and many other changes, this ain't your typical out of the box C400!

That being said, you can take most production boats anywhere. I guess you could take one straight out of the box and circle the world, but it would take more seamanship and more luck than you might need for a Valiant of similar size. In order to reduce the need for luck and/or seamanship skills, you can start making changes to the boat like better portholes, handholds, lifelines, tankage, cabinets, tankage, cabinets for storage, positive latching floorboards, tankage, tabbed bulkheads or reinforced bulkheads, cabinets, etc (and not to forget to add tankage). By the time you have made all these changes, it might have been cheaper to just buy a traditional bluewater boat! Maybe not. But there are also many positives of production boats... cost not necessarily one of them.

However, if I was certain of making far destinations beyond a 5 day weather window, I really would start looking at boats outside of the typical production line. I personally draw the line at 5 days because beyond that, it is very difficult (if not alltogether impossible) to guess the weather. At 5 days, you also start really pushing into the tankage limit on most production boats without modification (again, my personal limit WITHOUT modification). But I stress that unless you are certain to make those jumps, I probably would not do it. I would buy the boat that is comfortable on the hook (as a live aboard) first and foremost. That is where 99% of your time is spent.

I believe that most production boats of a reasonable size will, with some amount of luck and good seamanship, go to distant ports. The questin typically is not whether the boat can get you there, it is whether the captain can. It is hard to appreciate this statement until you have weathered your first good blow beyond the reach of a VHF and you really are on your own.

- CD
CD - awesome post. This is good stuff. Here are some of the interesting take-aways:

1. Though I know you didn't mean it as such - I think a feeder of the production/blue debate is this statement/perception:

"I guess you could take one straight out of the box and circle the world, but it would take more seamanship and more luck than you might need for a Valiant of similar size. In order to reduce the need for luck and/or seamanship skills, you can start making changes to the boat..."

This is really an interesting paradox, one that possibly drives a lot of people to buy a blu - then perhaps be too relaxed about the weather and seamanship - i.e. - "the boat can handle it". It makes you wonder. Does perceived fragility increase skill/attention? Does perceived strength decrease them?

2. The 5 day window is a great rule of thumb as far as I'm concerned. I'd not thought about it in those terms. I was thinking more distance - which is wrong. It's about the weather...always.

3. The realistic limitations of tankage is another important consideration - and one I'm just beginning to understand since I mostly pee off the stern into the lake.

4. Finally, I've always agreed with your 99% on-the-hook maxim, although you might get some blowback on that one due to your notorious (and I'm sure errant) reputation as a dock-dweller.

So - the Benes and Catalinas seem well-suited to pushing the blue edge a bit with what we'll call "minor" modification. Yes?

Other productions that have hammered away successfully?
 
#21 ·
It is more than just can it make there and back - although it should be the overall deciding factor.

You also have to consider the fact you'll actually be living on it for some extended period of time (most of the time). Finding the perfect blend for you will not be easy...Kinda like RVs and SUVs. Some have the looks, the capability, and livability (function as for example = when not sailing)...Storage and how you'll use it and what you have to compensate for coupled with lifestyle habits.

  • Bigger is not always better it is how space is used and how functional it is.
  • Seaworthiness is defined by understanding the worst qualities of what you sail and adjusting thereof.
  • Popularity of a item is determined by either fad or it works as advertised and to the customers expectations.
Bennies are actually nice boats, have helmed one and the amenities are nice and for coastal cruising I could see myself owning one. First appearances can be deceiving however. Sometimes simplicity is the order of the day, but when you are distant from a dealer, yard etc, you do have to think about what it is you are capable of handling on your own when the crap hits the fan.

Been many discussions like this on Sailnet over the years - in my reading of it all - it is up to the individual to determine if a production boat brand lives up to it - everyone's sailing style and habits are different. There is no one all answer - and like all these threads of related topics - really determined on the combination of concerns I listed above.

Personally, I went for a European designed boat - as it mimicked alot of features I have with an Airstream. But, that decision was made due to my selective process and certainly wouldn't work for many others. Production boats have the semblance of customer confidence that when it goes wrong you have someone to call. Once you are out 100 miles out or outside the United States - the rules change quick...
 
#25 ·
Seaworthiness is defined by understanding the worst qualities of what you sail and adjusting thereof.

There is no one all answer...
Yeah - I know there's not a single answer. But, hey, what else do we have to do other than debate this until the second coming?

Anyway, I think your statement above really nails it. And most of the debates I've seen center around the "what do I need to go blue" question. But when you think about it, that question typically comes from newbies like me that don't have a clue what "blue" means.

CD's (and others) point that almost ALL sailing is coastal and island hopping puts that very starting point into question. It's really the wrong question to ask for the vast majority of sailors.

Maybe I'm trying to vein a line that's not there - but it does seem to have a distinction from the debates I've seen. The question should be what are the best production boats (fast, comfortable, strong) for cruising sailors that can stand up to stink when you get caught 2 days out?
 
#22 ·
By the way, even on the production lines over 38 feet, if I did not have good access to major systems, could not easily examine things like Tie Rods/chain plates, could not add various tankage/cabinets without it looking "odd", did not have a good sea berth or the potential of one, and did not have a decent Lazarette, I would not include it in this category. There are just flat some sow's ears that can never be a silk purse... even with my imagination. I also believe a nice Nav Station should be added into this category, but this is more personal preference.

- CD
 
#32 ·
These "what makes the best…" discussions are better than the Rorschach ink block tests for revealing the psyche of the responders. "Blue", "coastal", "mill pond" water definitions are in the eye of the beholder and the chances of getting two people (let alone three) to agree is nigh impossible.

Reading this thread, you'd think sailing a Catalina in anything other than a Texas cattle pond would be suicidal. I've been in two ISAF Ocean Category 2 races (both were double handed!) so far this year. The Coast Guard had to perform rescues in each, but oddly enough, neither involved a Catalina. I've even taken Mrs. B out in 40kts back in March (both of us had to be back at work the next day) with no ill effect. A prudent sailor must be able to know what conditions he can or cannot safely sail in and perhaps my experience gives me an added advantage in sailing in heavier weather whereas a less experienced skipper would feel more comfortable in a bigger boat.

Weather forecasting is apparently easier for the Pacific region than the Atlantic. My experience is the five day GRIB is pretty accurate, seven day is O.K. and 14 day is so so. Heck, the five day NWS and NOAA forecasts are pretty much right on too. So if you define "coastal" as being no more than three to five days away from safe harbor then you ought to be able to pick your window and a Catalina (or even a Bene) should be up to the task. My little 34 has fuel tankage for forty hours and sufficient water for over a week (depending upon crew size) which puts it in that "costal" range.

Would I sail my C34 down to Cabo or PV? You bet! I have friends who have spent the past year in the SOC with their C34 and enjoying every moment. Would I go across the Gulf of Mexico? Why not? Sail to Bermuda? That's like going from SF to LA out here.

To find the perfect boat you need to turn inwards and make an honest assessment of what your goals and plans really are. Folks talk about the Southern Ocean all the time but 99.99% of them never venture off the continental shelf. Nothing wrong with that at all. Land, with all of its ports of call is infinitely more exciting than endless ocean. If you don't believe me, read the blog of the nut job who's goal is to float around the world's oceans for 1,000 days. If your (realistic) plan is to do the Intercoastal, Bahamas, Carib, or Mexico and you buy a boat capable for the Southern Ocean, chances are you will have overspent. You also need to be honest about your personal capabilities and risk tolerance. For example, companies like Island Packet have a profitable niche selling to first time cruisers (or wanabes) who are a bit unsure of themselves and have a very low risk tolerance.

Now, for my own ink blot test. I am perfectly happy in my Catalina. And unless the stock market rebounds in a very big way, Freya will be my retirement boat. I dream of the isles of the South Pacific, but, knowing Mrs.B, Mexico is in my realistic future. I see my boat as being on (roughly) even par with Beneteau's First Series. Their Oceanus Series is pretty, but I think pretty pedestrian performance. I like the Farr designed Beneteau 40.7 but can't stand the interior. If only they would come out with a 40.7 with an Oceanus inspired cabin. I thought that the Sabre 40 we raced against in the Pacific Cup had pretty good performance but was very disappointed in the workmanship on the one we looked at last winter. Quarter million was way too much for a boat that was a mass of spider web cracks topsides and the stress cracks emanating from about a quarter of the T-track bolts. Mrs. B actually liked the C400 better, but I cannot warm up to the cockpit or aft stateroom layout. The C42 is also on my short list and is pretty fast, considering that it is as dainty as a Mack truck.

<O:pI actually do sail in heavy weather conditions from time to time (and so does my camera boat!)<O:p
 
#34 ·
These "what makes the best&#8230;" discussions are better than the Rorschach ink block tests for revealing the psyche of the responders. "Blue", "coastal", "mill pond" water definitions are in the eye of the beholder and the chances of getting two people (let alone three) to agree is nigh impossible.
I passed these in Northern Norway last summer. Ships like these found Greenland and later America, but I'm told it wouldn't work. My local dealer recommends upgrading with:
200L diesel, 400L water. Radar, GPS, VHF, SSB, Autopilot, fridge, Dyneema halyards, watermaker, furling sail, el winches. stove, BBQ. Hot water, shower - how about a toilet?

Should I try with a little less? The boats look really gracious.
 

Attachments

#33 ·
I have a concrete and possibly useful suggestion: keep an eye on the organizer's site for the Sydney to Hobart Race. This is an ocean race of sensible length, taking only a few days for the mega-yachts but over a week for the cruising class, depending on weather.

The Tasman Sea is a horrific stretch of water, calm one day and furious the next; it covers a fair range of cruising conditions. The interesting part is that so many classes enter, with boats all the way from last year's racer to cruising boats 30 yrs old. Also interesting is the limit they set - don't take my word for it, but I believe the smallest boat they allow is 33 ft? Sure they carry safety gear, but a model allowed there cannot be useless at sea.
 
#49 · (Edited)
Smack, Great all time classic thread, but I like the 'all new' and very useful perspective :)

The first mate and I have been pondering this question a great deal of late, we have been looking at beat up production boats alongside aussie old shoes and really are trying to figure out what we want....

I would very much recommend to you to read, or at least become familiar with the story of Liza Copeland's book "Just Cruising" and also the sequel "Still Cruising".

Why?Liza and her husband were very experienced sailors who CHOSE to circumnavigate on a Beneteau First 38 with three kids. At the end of both books they have some great advice on their boat selection and equipping.

They specifically make the point, that a fast production boat like their First that can actually sail and point, has the ability to both avoid and overrun weather, whereas an 'old shoe' is left only with the option of sitting there and riding it out. Also it's a simple equation, less time on passage = less chance of running into the 'perfect storm'.

It's worth noting alot of old shoes have also have been 'modified' in reality. Many are offshore racers of bygone eras, and the old cruising stock horses would have accomodation that would be considered unacceptable by modern standards without changes. If you don't want to ever modify a boat then cruising is probably not for you.

I am unsure of your budget Smack, have you considered or looked at the likes of Hallberg-Rassy or Swan?? They are boats that sail fast and well but are also built to go places. You might find by the time you buy a Bene and spend money modifying you could of just bought a Hallberg-Rassy....



Your right OsmundL however alot of the designs that do Hobart will be Aussie Old Shoes or Aussie/NZ build offshore racers. Last year I think there were maybe 7 Bene's that went to Hobart and a Bavaria.
 
#35 ·
The problem seems to always be the "what do you mean by blue-water" and "crew experience vs. boat hardiness" and "comfort vs. safety" responses. May I suggest a direction for this thread that doesn't involve so many apples-oranges comparisons:

For those of you who, like me, currently have a boat that you consider not quite prepared for at least some of the trips you realistically would like to take in the next few years, what do you think you need to upgrade on your boat so that she can handle what you have planned for her? Let's talk just about what the boat needs, and assume that a more experienced crew is always a good thing.

So just: type of boat you've got, what sort of cruise you want to take her on, and what you need to do to get her ready.

I'll start.

My '72 Catalina 27 was very much a racer-in-protected-waters when she came into my life. Currently she's got tankage enough for at least twelve man-days of winter cruising without resupplying (we've been on a three-day trip with four people). My planned milestones are Desolation Sound (no ocean exposure), a Vancouver Island circumnavigation (some ocean exposure), and possibly a trip down the Pacific coast.

For the Desolation Sound trip, all that she's missing is better ground tackle. She's got 90' of nylon rode shackled to 30' of chain, and a smallish Danforth. I consider that not enough for a trip where I expect to be anchoring most of the time. I don't think she can comfortably carry all chain, but I'd like at least a 200' rode and a heavier main anchor.

For the Van.Isle circumnavigation, which I would consider blue-water:
- I would like more serious gaskets on all hatches, as well as latches on all cabinets and cockpit lockers.
- There is currently no good way to secure the dinette table, so that would need to be dealt with.
- The batteries are not in proper boxes yet (we've tried, no space with present layout), and that needs to be done.
- She also needs at least a storm jib, and if there's a way I can add a third reef point to the main, that would also be ideal.
- We also need a better way of emptying the bilge than the current portable hand pump we've got.
- It would be nice to have some way of replenishing our batteries aside from the portable charger and the 3 amp alternator on the outboard.
- Finally, I don't know how strong the stern attachment points are; I would like them to be strong enough to handle a drogue.

If we actually plan to do a Pacific coast cruise:
- To really hardy up the boat, I would want her to have completely tabbed bulkheads. Some are tabbed, some at most partially -- difficult to determine because of the liner -- and in some places I can see 1/2" inch of space between the hull and the bulkhead. However I've felt her shudder after crashing down a six-foot wave, and I don't know how much of that she can take.
- I also don't know how strong the rig itself is. Would want a survey and probably upgrade some of the rigging.
- There's no self-steering other than an electric tiller pilot, and with the outboard I don't think a wind vane is in the cards.
- A weatherfax would be awesome.
- Stronger pad-eyes for jacklines.
- The cockpit drains through two small (~1" diameter) holes aft, into the engine well. Doesn't seem like the best design. I'd like to modify it to drain faster and more reliably.
- Hull is fin keel with attached ballast. Can't do much about this, but I can have the attachments (J-shaped keel bolts) inspected and reinforced.

So, there's what I think is needed for a boat that is at least somewhat more blue-water-capable than what I've got now, except described in terms not conflated by lack of specificity as to what "blue-water" means. Also this is a discussion of features independent of the brand of boat, and so the analysis can be applied to any brand (i.e. does your Benny have this stuff? If so, have a blast).

Next?
 
#36 ·
Smack, as far as MacGregor's go, all ya have to do each do a yachtworld search on M65's. Almost all of them are in the Med or Europe. These were built in Cali and sailed from there via various routes so yes, Mac's are bluewater boats as well. The big ones anyways. I wouldn't try to sail my V-21 to Hawaii or anything like that...
 
#37 ·
So Osmund, in keeping with the Rorschach theme of my note; Does this mean deep down inside you yearn to be a Viking? Have had much experience in sailing these boats? If so, I’d love hear your stories. What do these boats rate in PHRF? If I was to get another boat, it would have to rate below one hundred (Freya currently is 147). Mrs. B and I honeymooned in Norway and have fond memories of the country. We boated on the Oslo Fjord and traveled on the mail packets on Sogne and Hardanger Fjords as well as up the coast. Those photos look like the Lofoten islands? As you might have guessed we named our boat in honor of my wife’s heritage and proudly fly the vimple as our house pendant.
 
#42 ·
So Osmund, in keeping with the Rorschach theme of my note; Does this mean deep down inside you yearn to be a Viking?
I wish! I'm afraid the Viking lives mostly in my head. They do exist, though! Jarle Andhøy, who names all his boats "Berserk", first sailed around Cape Horn in an Albin Vega 27ft, then in another around from Norway to Siberia and back down the Russian rivers to the Black Sea, following a known Viking route. His latest adventure, a little over a year ago, was to sail the first sailboat in a century through the Northwest Passage with a gang of genuine nutcases, retracing the route of Roald Amundsen. All the more difficult when one of them was a Hells Angel and wanted by Canadian Police, so he had to hide in the hull when coast guards passed, and on a few occasions be put ashore on islands to hide. If you can cope with a mix of English and Norwegian dialogue, the following footage gives you an idea and has some vistas, especially in the second half. I hope you don't mind watching them crap over the side :) :)

Jarle did not have sponsorships, by the way, and this latest is a steelboat found abandoned on land in the Caribbean, where he bought it for near nothing and restored it, though hardly to the neat specs we have recommended in this thread. I guess this also gives you an angle into what is possible.

NRK Nett-TV - hastighetsmåling

As for me, I'm less adventurous. Yes, the pics were from Lofoten last summer, and I hope to be there again in two months.
 
#38 ·
"Why not? Sail to Bermuda? That’s like going from SF to LA out here."
George are you serious with that statement? Try that trip some time with wind blowing 20-25 against the Gulfstream.

"Weather forecasting is apparently easier for the Pacific region than the Atlantic. My experience is the five day GRIB is pretty accurate, seven day is O.K. and 14 day is so so. Heck, the five day NWS and NOAA forecasts are pretty much right on too."

Try the East Coast, Gulf Coast and the Great Lakes where NOAA is notoriously inaccurate. A good east coast forecast in the summer is 3-4 days. Great Lakes good forecasts are measured in hours with numerous local variations. You've been California dreamin' too long if you thing the Pacific weather is what we get elsewhere. Look at any major offshore race on the East Cosat or Great Lakes. Commanders weather has made a business out of providing more accurate forecasts than NOAA>

"I thought that the Sabre 40 we raced against in the Pacific Cup had pretty good performance but was very disappointed in the workmanship on the one we looked at last winter. Quarter million was way too much for a boat that was a mass of spider web cracks topsides and the stress cracks emanating from about a quarter of the T-track bolts"

There a lot of Sabre owners that would beg to differ. I wouldn't judge the quality on one boat. What year was that Sabre and what maintenance and who did the track installation? Give me a Sabre anyday on a rough day. They are less cushy than Catalinas but they sail a hell of a lot better in rough weather. Somebody better tell the folks at Hinckley that Sabre is a crap builder because that is where the Hinckley molds are made.
 
#39 ·
If a Jeanneau 49iP can get from the NW US to Australia and back, I would think, no, make that expect with NO issues that Daniels B49 could go from NY to burmuda etc and back with no real issues too!

I am sure my older 30' Jeanneau could do pretty well ofshore, with the way it is designed etc too. It has some better options for keeping water out of the cabin from a rear swell/wave than some do!

In the end tho, a lot does depend upon the crew, the boat will do fine, I seem to recall a group getting hauled off of a Jeanneau in a storm a year or so ago, only to have a freighter find it a week or so later, and got hauled back to Europe at 17 knots behind the frieghter!

While some will say the European ratings of A, B and C are worthless, they are better than anything the US/NAmerica has. At least you know what said boats have to have to meet said requirements etc.

With that, I am sure smack could get his C27 to Bermuda. Alan will have no issues circumnavigating Vancouver Island, he will not be the first either! along witha few Kayaks when he does it. A race this summer ie the Van-Isle will be going on, 2 weeks racing around the island with ports of call ea evening etc.

Anyway, enough of my input, I do agree with George, next boat will be at or bellow 100PHRF or there abouts, mine at 190-200 can be a bit slow at times!

marty
 
#40 ·
Hey Adam, I see your point. And it is indeed somewhat ambassadorial - but I definitely prefer the snot fight of "my boat is bluer than yours". Waayyyyy more fun.

BTW - your C27 is bluer than mine. But mine's uglier and meaner!

And good lord, the freeboard on those Norse boats????? Shameful. No one would EVER take something like that into the open ocean. The dinghy though - sweet.
 
#41 ·
BTW - your C27 is bluer than mine. But mine's uglier and meaner!
Dude don't make me challenge you to an ugly contest. Let's just say that just because I didn't include beautification in my post, doesn't mean I don't have plans for a makeover.

Besides, you shouldn't say things like that about your dear. She might hear you and get offended.
 
#47 ·
Sandusky don’t hold back… tell me what you really think. But seriously, I stand by my thesis that Smack’s original question was really a Rorschach test that reveals more about the writer than just a strict answering of the question. Also, I think that President Obama is right, college football should go to a playoff system. That’s our problem here. A lot of regional bias here (and I’ll freely admit mine) and I guess until we all sail on each other’s boats and in our local waters, we won’t appreciate where the other guy is coming from. Any time you’re out here, I’d be happy to take you sailing.

I’ve raced in the Coastal Cup where it built to gale conditions a little north of Monterey and blew in the mid thirties to mid forties until after we rounded Pts. Conception/Arguello. I’ve got a pretty good idea of what it is like to spend three days in 15-20 foot seas. Forgive me if I sound a bit jaded but 20-25 kts is considered a pretty average day for us in the summer, but our current only runs to 5-51/2. Around here, the bar talk starts at over thirty knots. I even know a fellow who did the Bermuda 1 – 2 in his C36 so I’m pretty sure it can be done. Besides, it’s rated in the same class of ocean racing as I’m doing now in Freya.

<O:pI don’t know how you guys on the east coast deal with that weather of yours, not knowing on Wednesday if you should bring the #4 or the light air #1 and the dental floss for Saturday. I am so glad that the Eastern Pacific follows a monsoonal pattern. Systems blow through here about every four to seven days and the forecasts are pretty good. Granted, the 5 to 25 knot forecast for the DH Farallones was a bit hard to decipher, but it was still pretty close to the 30 kts that blew that night.

<O:pIn regards to the Sabre, I really really wanted one. There is one up for sale in LA that really spoke to me, Transpac vet, race ready, all (or at least most of the goodies) on my list. Downloaded various brochures and reviews and even got MrsB excited. Well, it so happened that Sail California got one in that was the same vintage albeit a pretty much “plain Jane” boat. The obviously hadn’t been sailed much and the owner used it pretty much as a waterside condo. The broker, a family friend, even had to deliver the boat from Moss Landing to Alameda. I know that spider web cracks are cosmetic, but I expected more for a used boat priced at a quarter million dollars. The disturbing thing was the stress cracks in the glass emanating from the t-tack bolt holes. Those have the potential of going down to the core giving you rot. And the weird thing about it is that they were completely random some on port, some on starboard and randomly up and down the track area. If you like I can take some pictures and show you. I have no idea how long they have been there or if it is a one boat thing. But like J-80s that lost their keels were all built within a year or two, it makes you wonder. $250,000 for a ten year old boat with gel coat cracking, not very interested. Perhaps if the LA boat drops to $200k, we’ll make the trip down there, but unfortunately, the bloom is off that rose. The Jack London boat show is next week and perhaps it will re-kindle the love affair.

<O:pOh, by the way, that previous photo was from the DH Lightship race, winds in the mid twenties and a moderate swell of 7 – 10 feet. <O:p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top