Cruising on a tri or cat

[sailingdog]

I'd point out that sailing on a beach cat, like a Hobie, has very little to do with sailing on a cruising sized multihull. Beach cats are extremely overpowered, and far more likely to capsize or pitchpole. They're a hell of a lot of fun, but comparing them to a cruising multihull is like comparing a Moth sailing dinghy to a cruising monohull....

Your point about the differences, like bearing away versus heading up, is very key... monohull sailors need to unlearn some near instinctive reactions that will get them into trouble on a multihull.

There are quite a few decent small cruising catamaran designs out now. The Maine Cat 30, the TomCat 9.7, the Gemini 105mc, the Seawind 1000, etc. Most of these are bluewater capable, though some monohull purists might disagree.

I'd point out that the scantlings for monohulls are very different than the scantlings for multihulls. Multihulls are often far lighter constructed—but if you think about it, this makes a vast amount of sense.

The monohull has to support the keel and resist the forces that supporting the keel inflicts on it. When a wave hits a monohull, sheer inertia pins it in place.

The multihull on the other hand does not have the mass or inertia of a keel, depending on its wide beam for stability instead. When a wave hits a multihull, it will generally accelerate and move with the wave instead of being pinned like a monohull.

There are also some very good cruising trimaran designs out there. The bulk of the modern trimarans are taken up by the "sport" trimaran designs, like the Farrier inspired Corsairs, the Quorning Dragonflies and my Telstar 28. These designs really top out at about 37-40' or so. There are larger trimarans, but no production ones that I can think of off the top of my head.

As pointed out, the catamarans, at least those with a bridgedeck cabin, are going to be far more spacious than the trimarans of equal length. The trimarans are probably going to be far better performers.

There are a lot of older trimaran designs that use a full wingdeck or nearly so. The Jim Brown-designed Searunners are among these. This style of trimaran design has mostly fallen by the wayside. However, some of Norman Cross's designs still use a wingdeck and are fairly spacious boats.

Originally Posted by damies

mackconsult,

I understand where you are coming from, until a year ago I had never sailed a multi, I grew up around mono's. So while no means being an expert I will post my experience in the conversion.

Most importantly you will need to re-learn to sail it is a little different, not relearn completely, just change some instincts.

As I sai I grew up around mono's on Sydney harbour and the Hawksbury River, then with work life and after getting married, I didn't get a chance to sail for over 15 years. When I decided I wanted to sail again (you do miss sailing) I was now living In Brisbane, This was important, because the places I sailed as a kid/teenager were all deep water areas, brisbane and it's surrounding waterways are notoriously shallow and littered with sand bars. This was a big contributing factor in my decision to sail a multi.

The other factor for me was my wife, she has never sailed, and scares easily, I knew a soon as a mono healed past 15º she would be scared, having been married 10 years I knew she would never really get used to healing like that, so this was the other big contributor.

My first step to Multi sailing was to hire a Hobie cat, so with the whole family on board a 14' Hobie cat I went sailing for the first time in 15 years. In some ways this was a mistake.

From my reading I know that multi's capsize when the leeward bow digs in the water, we got a gust of breeze and the leeward bow started to go quite deep into the water, my instinct as a mono sailor was when overpowered to bear away, so I did and capsized, so that was lesson one, in a multi, if you are overpowered, point upwind and stall the boat, never bear away.

So with all 4 of us in the water, and my son (the youngest) under the main sail, I had to instruct 3 novices what to do, I swam under the main and go my son out, and instructed everyone to just hang onto the boat. I righted the cat (I had read about how to do this, it's not that different to righting a dingy) and pulled everyone aboard then came lesson 2.

Trying to get going again, the way I would in a dingy, I got a rude surprise, I couldn't seem to move forward, I was actually sailing backward with out realising, and all my attempts to steer were all behaving strangely. I finally got moving again, and we sailed around for another 10 min until our hire time (1 hours) was up and we came back ashore.

Luckily for me it was a quite day at the beach and the guy who was hiring the cats wanted a sail, so he took me out and gave me a few pointers about sailing cats and how they are different to mono's, this was very helpful.

A year later my son is still scared about capsizing, though getting better, this is why I regret taking the family out on the cat.

So now my advice:

1) First couple of times you sail on a multi, whether yours / a hired one / or whatever other way you get on a multi. Make sure you go with someone experienced in sailing multi's, and learn as though you were a novice, it's not that it hard, just different and you have to retrain some instincts. And don't take the family if they are not experienced sailors

2) Tri's sail more like mono's than cats, it's pretty obvious why.

3) cabin space: if you can afford a bridge deck cat, go for a cat, they will have more cabin space than even a mono. If not and like me you are looking at smaller boats (under 35') then you will probably find you are looking as open deck cats and compared to these the tri's have better cabin space.

4) Whether you buy a cat or a tri, first couple of times you go out on it, again take someone who is experienced with that type of boat, and have fun.

I hope that my experience helps.

Good luck,

Dave.

[damies]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

I'd point out that sailing on a beach cat, like a Hobie, has very little to do with sailing on a cruising sized multihull. Beach cats are extremely overpowered, and far more likely to capsize or pitchpole. They're a hell of a lot of fun, but comparing them to a cruising multihull is like comparing a Moth sailing dinghy to a cruising monohull....

I Agree 100%

Your point about the differences, like bearing away versus heading up, is very key... monohull sailors need to unlearn some near instinctive reactions that will get them into trouble on a multihull.

And this was why I mentioned my experience, It was a big part of my learning curve as beginning Multi sailor. It's the sort of information I wish I had found when I was starting. If I had read about this I may not have capsized, cause I would have known what to do. Nothing beats first hand experience, but I try to read everything I can find on a topic before trying something new. Mostly 'cause I believe in learning from others mistakes where possible

SD You are in a much better position than me to write a comprehensive list of tips for mono sailors converting to Multi. This is an example of the things to include. I had not found such a list, perhaps in a new thread.

There are quite a few decent small cruising catamaran designs out now. The Maine Cat 30, the TomCat 9.7, the Gemini 105mc, the Seawind 1000, etc. Most of these are bluewater capable,

These are all over 30'! My point was about smaller Cats, particularly 30' (9m) and under, in this range, there are not many bridge deck Cats, most are open deck (Wharram's, Seawind 24's, etc) and have much smaller and less comfortable accommodations than a similar sized Tri. Again from my experiance, I looked at a 26' Wharram and found while it had more berths on paper than my 24' Piver, It had much less cabin space. Cruising on these 2 boats, I would consider it on the Piver, no way on the Wharram (though others have). It all boils down to what comfort levels you are prepared to accept within you budget.

As pointed out, the catamarans, at least those with a bridgedeck cabin, are going to be far more spacious than the trimarans of equal length. The trimarans are probably going to be far better performers.

There are a lot of older trimaran designs that use a full wingdeck or nearly so. The Jim Brown-designed Searunners are among these. This style of trimaran design has mostly fallen by the wayside. However, some of Norman Cross's designs still use a wingdeck and are fairly spacious boats.

While these designs are old, there are a lot of them around, they have stood the test of time and not been trashed by capsizing (whether by prudent sailing or good design, is another debate for another thread). Point is they are still sailing and are available at an affordable price. mackconsult never said what his budget was, The information I gave is exactly the information I would have found useful if it was given to me. I hope it is useful to someone else too.

SD I don't wish to disagree with what you say, I don't I fully agree (besides I think you know way more than me about Multi's). Just not everyone is in the market for new or near new 30+' boats, and so I was seeking to give advice to the rest of us

I know Piver's aren't considered great designs by Tri Standards, but mine has been great for me as a first boat I paid money for, as a boat that gets me on the water, and as low risk (financially) way of getting familiar with sailing a multi. It was the cheapest (lowest risk) way I get out on the water again, the thinking being if I totally messed up and wrote the boat off running into rocks or capsizing or something like that, well I lost what I paid for the boat. While it would hurt (emotionally mostly), it wouldn't bankrupt me, and it still allows my family to remain comfortable. I guess I am offering a different perspective to Sell/mortgage the house and buy a big new(ish) Cat when buying your first Multi. Maybe because I'm risk adverse, but to me that was a huge risk.

I will say in defence of the Piver I bought, It has achieved and well exceed everything I had hoped it would when I bought it, in that respect I guess you could say it is a great boat.

Dave.

[TQA]

If money is no object then a 45 ft cat with a decent sailplan makes a good cruising boat. Smaller ones suffer when burdened by the essentials of a cruising life.

But I would need to spend at least 3 times as much as my current boat cost to get any cat of comparable space and performance with a nice one being 4-5 times as much.

[sailingdog]

Originally Posted by damies

And this was why I mentioned my experience, It was a big part of my learning curve as beginning Multi sailor. It's the sort of information I wish I had found when I was starting. If I had read about this I may not have capsized, cause I would have known what to do. Nothing beats first hand experience, but I try to read everything I can find on a topic before trying something new. Mostly 'cause I believe in learning from others mistakes where possible

SD You are in a much better position than me to write a comprehensive list of tips for mono sailors converting to Multi. This is an example of the things to include. I had not found such a list, perhaps in a new thread.

This is one reason I recommend Mike McMullen's book, Multihull Seamanship. Unfortunately, this book is fairly difficult to find as it has been out of print for quite some time.

These are all over 30'! My point was about smaller Cats, particularly 30' (9m) and under, in this range, there are not many bridge deck Cats, most are open deck (Wharram's, Seawind 24's, etc) and have much smaller and less comfortable accommodations than a similar sized Tri. Again from my experiance, I looked at a 26' Wharram and found while it had more berths on paper than my 24' Piver, It had much less cabin space. Cruising on these 2 boats, I would consider it on the Piver, no way on the Wharram (though others have). It all boils down to what comfort levels you are prepared to accept within you budget.

All boats are compromises, and we have to pick which ones we can accept.

Actually, there are a lot of cats in the <30' range. The Heavenly Twins 26 and its relatives, the Iroquois, the Oceanic, the older Geminis started at 30' with the Gemini 3000, and so on.

Another small catamaran, the Stiletto 27 is a great little cruising cat, but it is very primitive in terms of accommodations... however, it makes up for this by being a freaking rocketship... The thing displaces half of what my Telstar does and has more sail area...

While these designs are old, there are a lot of them around, they have stood the test of time and not been trashed by capsizing (whether by prudent sailing or good design, is another debate for another thread). Point is they are still sailing and are available at an affordable price. mackconsult never said what his budget was, The information I gave is exactly the information I would have found useful if it was given to me. I hope it is useful to someone else too.

SD I don't wish to disagree with what you say, I don't I fully agree (besides I think you know way more than me about Multi's). Just not everyone is in the market for new or near new 30+' boats, and so I was seeking to give advice to the rest of us

I know Piver's aren't considered great designs by Tri Standards, but mine has been great for me as a first boat I paid money for, as a boat that gets me on the water, and as low risk (financially) way of getting familiar with sailing a multi. It was the cheapest (lowest risk) way I get out on the water again, the thinking being if I totally messed up and wrote the boat off running into rocks or capsizing or something like that, well I lost what I paid for the boat. While it would hurt (emotionally mostly), it wouldn't bankrupt me, and it still allows my family to remain comfortable. I guess I am offering a different perspective to Sell/mortgage the house and buy a big new(ish) Cat when buying your first Multi. Maybe because I'm risk adverse, but to me that was a huge risk.

The Piver designs were really the ones that started the whole cruising trimaran class in many ways. The biggest problem with Piver designs is that they tended to get a bad reputation because so many of them were home-built by people using shoddy materials and construction methods. Properly built, they are pretty solid little boats.

I'd point out that Tony Smith, the designer of my Telstar and the Gemini catamaran, started out on a Piver design a long, long time ago. In fact, I believe it was a Piver Nugget. I am guessing that Piver was a fairly strong influence on Tony Smith and his designs. From the ITOA website:

Most trimaran enthusiasts are aware of Arthur Piver who is known as the “father of the modern trimaran.” Piver was a WWII fighter pilot, amateur sailor, and print-shop owner in Sausalito, California. In the 1950’s and 60’s Piver designed and built a series of simple three-hulled sailboats constructed from plywood. Around 1960, Piver single-handedly sailed one of his 30’ designs from Swansee, Massachusetts to the Azores and on to Plymouth, England. This trip went a long way to proving the inherent sea worthiness of Piver’s designs and trimarans in general.

Nearly as soon as Piver set foot on land at Plymouth, Nobby Clarke, a car salesman from Cox Automobiles (soon to become Cox Marine), shook Piver’s hand and struck a deal to build and sell Piver Trimarans throughout Europe. The cruising multihull industry was thus born.

Not content to just sell completed boats, Piver sold plan drawings for a range of plywood trimarans ranging from the 16’ Frolic to the 65’ Empress. Piver firmly believed that any practical person with some common sense and diligence could build a trimaran capable of sailing around the world. The do-it-yourself concept and Piver designs were immensely popular and inspired thousands of novices to build and sail their own trimarans - each one tweaked with whatever the owner though important and worthwhile.

At the ripe old age of 19, Tony Smith bought a set of Piver Trimaran plans and proceeded to build a 24’ Nugget trimaran in a shed in East Anglia, England. Throughout the Winter of 1964, Tony completed the boat and single-handedly sailed the boat 500 miles from the east coast of England to west coast of France and back. With the knowledge associated with building the boat and experience of sailing the design, Tony was invited to join with Eric Willis of Cox Marine in the first two-handed, 2000 mile Round Britain Race in 1966. Smith and his partner managed to finish 4th out of a fleet of 36 boats.

Within a year, Tony took to designing his own 26’ trimaran with the intention of racing in the 1968 single-handed Transatlantic. The race required that each skipper have a minimum of 500 miles of single-handed sailing just to qualify. Tony’s first design, dubbed the Endeavor, consisted of plywood construction and was designed to self-right and self-steer. “It’s interesting to look back and consider all that has happened following the simple act of putting pen to paper and designing a trimaran,” says Tony.

The Jim Brown Searunners were also very solid boats, but the problem with the Searunners is that they are relatively slow designs, with less than stellar sailing characteristics. While they're fine for island hopping, they do tend to be a lot slower than more modern designs. They also don't point as well, due the the excessive windage that their extended wingdeck cabins present.

Many modern multihull converts are in it for the sailing performance. Some of the older designs are capable of giving them this... but many really aren't.

I will say in defence of the Piver I bought, It has achieved and well exceed everything I had hoped it would when I bought it, in that respect I guess you could say it is a great boat.

Dave.

Is there really any more you can ask for in a boat??? It is much as I say in my signature... you've got to love the boat you have... if you don't you've got the wrong boat.
__________________

[SelkirkGrace]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

I'd point out that some of the large catamarans that are designed for bluewater cruising, like the Catana 431 and Lagoon 440 are poorly designed IMHO. Look at the helm positions on these two boats and compare them to the helm position on the Atlantic series of catamarans, there's a world of difference.

As usual, the Dog is spot-on. This was my biggest issue with the larger cats. Check out all of the newer Robertson and Caine designs. (yes, I know Sailnet doesn't even show R&C as a boat Builder, can you say "mono-centric"). The helm is raised and has its own bimini. As in all designs, there can still be blind spots, but all boats are a study in trade offs. ROBERTSON and CAINE.

I love Chris White's designs as he really doesn't optimize for cruising, he optimizes for a much higher performance specification. Go sail a leopard with Sunsail or Moorings. You will discover they are big, very heavy blue water boats and they are optimized for "idiots" at the helm. They are very forgiving versus a performance mono or tri. Having said that, they are a great cruiser and the perfect boat IMHO for sailing the blue waters anywhere.

[sailingdog]

I'd point out that R&C does not DESIGN boats. They manufacture/build boats, but the boats are generally designed by someone else. The Leopard catamarans that R&C are best known for are designed by Gino Morelli, of Melvin & Morelli IIRC.

IIRC, some of the Chris White boats have been built in South Africa, and possibly by Robertson & Caine. Lombardi Yachts, out of Virginia, has built quite a few as well.

Originally Posted by SelkirkGrace

As usual, the Dog is spot-on. This was my biggest issue with the larger cats. Check out all of the newer Robertson and Caine designs. (yes, I know Sailnet doesn't even show R&C as a boat Builder, can you say "mono-centric"). The helm is raised and has its own bimini. As in all designs, there can still be blind spots, but all boats are a study in trade offs. ROBERTSON and CAINE.

I love Chris White's designs as he really doesn't optimize for cruising, he optimizes for a much higher performance specification. Go sail a leopard with Sunsail or Moorings. You will discover they are big, very heavy blue water boats and they are optimized for "idiots" at the helm. They are very forgiving versus a performance mono or tri. Having said that, they are a great cruiser and the perfect boat IMHO for sailing the blue waters anywhere.

[malovich]

another option for cat helms is that of drumbeat as seen here: Overview
that is a custom bob oram designed boat

[sailingdog]

The problem I see with Drumbeat is the fact that there is no external helm position. An external helm position makes docking a lot simpler. Also, not a big fan of having the lines lead into the pilothouse. While that is very convenient, it does allow water ingress in heavy conditions... not much, but keeping the interior of the boat as dry as possible is usually a good thing.

Originally Posted by malovich

another option for cat helms is that of drumbeat as seen here: Overview
that is a custom bob oram designed boat

[malovich]

Drumbeats captains chair is in fact open to the outside, just safely tucked high and in the center of the cockpit. It is not in the pilothouse at all.

[sailingdog]

This looks like a pilothouse to me... but I've not seen a good overview image of the aft end of the boat. Getting in and out of the helm position looks pretty difficult. The view from the helm looks like it is pretty obstructed in a lot of different ways...

Originally Posted by malovich

Drumbeats captains chair is in fact open to the outside, just safely tucked high and in the center of the cockpit. It is not in the pilothouse at all.