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Old 03-12-2010
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Cruising on a tri or cat

I am a long time monohull sailor. Very experienced on the water. Thinking about cruising soon, been thinking about trimaran's and catamaran's.

I know that tri's and cat's can flip so don't even bother dropping that one on me. Just looking for others feedback on cruising in a tri or cat over a monohull.

Here is my thinking. Port to Port might be quicker in a tri or cat .... although I now that means sacrificing some comfort. Would also need to be a little more picky when it comes to weather windows. Of course moorage becomes more of a problem.
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I believe that if you are talking about a good cruising cat (or tri) the only problem is the moorage, but that can be a huge problem, depending the area you cruise.

Of course, the other problem you didn't mention is ....money Cruising cats are a lot more expensive than monohulls.
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mackconsult,

I understand where you are coming from, until a year ago I had never sailed a multi, I grew up around mono's. So while no means being an expert I will post my experience in the conversion.

Most importantly you will need to re-learn to sail it is a little different, not relearn completely, just change some instincts.

As I sai I grew up around mono's on Sydney harbour and the Hawksbury River, then with work life and after getting married, I didn't get a chance to sail for over 15 years. When I decided I wanted to sail again (you do miss sailing) I was now living In Brisbane, This was important, because the places I sailed as a kid/teenager were all deep water areas, brisbane and it's surrounding waterways are notoriously shallow and littered with sand bars. This was a big contributing factor in my decision to sail a multi.

The other factor for me was my wife, she has never sailed, and scares easily, I knew a soon as a mono healed past 15ş she would be scared, having been married 10 years I knew she would never really get used to healing like that, so this was the other big contributor.

My first step to Multi sailing was to hire a Hobie cat, so with the whole family on board a 14' Hobie cat I went sailing for the first time in 15 years. In some ways this was a mistake.

From my reading I know that multi's capsize when the leeward bow digs in the water, we got a gust of breeze and the leeward bow started to go quite deep into the water, my instinct as a mono sailor was when overpowered to bear away, so I did and capsized, so that was lesson one, in a multi, if you are overpowered, point upwind and stall the boat, never bear away.

So with all 4 of us in the water, and my son (the youngest) under the main sail, I had to instruct 3 novices what to do, I swam under the main and go my son out, and instructed everyone to just hang onto the boat. I righted the cat (I had read about how to do this, it's not that different to righting a dingy) and pulled everyone aboard then came lesson 2.

Trying to get going again, the way I would in a dingy, I got a rude surprise, I couldn't seem to move forward, I was actually sailing backward with out realising, and all my attempts to steer were all behaving strangely. I finally got moving again, and we sailed around for another 10 min until our hire time (1 hours) was up and we came back ashore.

Luckily for me it was a quite day at the beach and the guy who was hiring the cats wanted a sail, so he took me out and gave me a few pointers about sailing cats and how they are different to mono's, this was very helpful.

A year later my son is still scared about capsizing, though getting better, this is why I regret taking the family out on the cat.

So now my advice:

1) First couple of times you sail on a multi, whether yours / a hired one / or whatever other way you get on a multi. Make sure you go with someone experienced in sailing multi's, and learn as though you were a novice, it's not that it hard, just different and you have to retrain some instincts. And don't take the family if they are not experienced sailors

2) Tri's sail more like mono's than cats, it's pretty obvious why.

3) cabin space: if you can afford a bridge deck cat, go for a cat, they will have more cabin space than even a mono. If not and like me you are looking at smaller boats (under 35') then you will probably find you are looking as open deck cats and compared to these the tri's have better cabin space.

4) Whether you buy a cat or a tri, first couple of times you go out on it, again take someone who is experienced with that type of boat, and have fun.

I hope that my experience helps.

Good luck,

Dave.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mackconsult View Post
Would also need to be a little more picky when it comes to weather windows. Of course moorage becomes more of a problem.
Weather windows, is probably true, though never been a problem for me, you will need to reduce sail earlier.

Moorage has not been a problem for me, but I am on a swing mooring, and would have been with a mono as well, I don't mind the rowing to my boat and can't afford the marina fees around here. On that point, a multi has an advantage, shallow draft means easier to get a mooring in some places, at low tide (0.3m above lat) I can stand on the bottom in shoulder deep water and walk around my tri while she is on the mooring.

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Mack,

One of the better ways to educate yourself about multihulls is to start reading. Here are two books to get you started:

The Cruising Catamaran Advantage, Rod Gibbons (older but still relavant)
The Cruising Multihull, Chris White

Both authors have their biases so read what they have to say with that in mind. Having said that, I'll tell you I'm a total convert to multis, especially given the kind of boating I do. I won't explain why now, mostly as your own process of discovery is really the issue here.

As for the concerns you mentioned I can offer some insight, though. Properly designed for cruising and properly sailed, flipping a multi is extremely rare; it can happen when racing hard but that is a completely different realm than cruising. Getting from point A to point B will likely happen in less time (~ 20% less) provided the multi in question is not overloaded; the motion is a bit different but not uncomfortable, and the isometric-free ride means you arrive less exhausted and more alert. Moorage is less a problem than you may think, too, as multis offer a very stable and comfortable platform when anchored out. And since multis have relatively shallow draft the spot you chose to drop the hook will likely have more privacy than the location where the keelboats must go.
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Old 03-13-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mackconsult View Post
I am a long time monohull sailor. Very experienced on the water. Thinking about cruising soon, been thinking about trimaran's and catamaran's.

I know that tri's and cat's can flip so don't even bother dropping that one on me. Just looking for others feedback on cruising in a tri or cat over a monohull.
I'd highly recommend you read the post I wrote a while back on multihulls as a starting point. It is located here.

Trimarans are typically less roomy than a monohull of equal LOA, while catamarans are typically more roomy. Trimarans tend to have better sailing performance and characteristics, provided they're not the old full wingdeck versions like the Pivers.

Quote:
Here is my thinking. Port to Port might be quicker in a tri or cat .... although I now that means sacrificing some comfort.
What size boat are you talking about??? A properly designed trimaran or catamaran will often be faster port to port, but doesn't require sacrificing comfort. Many will argue that a multihull would be more comfortable, rather than less, since there is no constant heeling at 15˚+...

I'd point out that many of the charter industry catamarans are extremely under-canvassed, have very high windage, and really poor sailing characteristics. These boats were designed to do what most charterers have come to want—move them from beach bar to beach bar with enough space that they and their friends can hang out, lounge and party without interfering with each other too much. These boats are sailboats in name only.

Quote:
Would also need to be a little more picky when it comes to weather windows.
A cruising sized multihull is fully capable of dealing with adverse weather at least as well as a monohull. However, the tactics are going to be very different. Raising the boards on centerboard/daggerboard multihulls and lying ahull is an option that isn't really feasible on most monohulls. The best serious piece of heavy weather survival gear on any small sailing craft IMHO is the Jordan Series Drogue.

Quote:
Of course moorage becomes more of a problem.
While slips are more difficult for a multihull to get into, moorage is often not a problem. The shallow draft of most multihulls allows them to use moorings or anchorages that other boats simply can not. I've been to many anchorages, where a monohull wouldn't find space to anchor due to the number of boats already there... and easily found a spot to anchor in... with a draft of 16", I can anchor in 4' of water pretty safely.

One couple I met this past season talked about how their average passage speeds were in the 12-17 knot range. Granted, they were in a pretty big catamaran...but a monohull with the accommodations of their 55' catamaran would be much, much larger....and slower than their boat.
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Old 03-14-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
I'd highly recommend you read the post I wrote a while back on multihulls as a starting point. It is located here.

Trimarans are typically less roomy than a monohull of equal LOA, while catamarans are typically more roomy. Trimarans tend to have better sailing performance and characteristics, provided they're not the old full wingdeck versions like the Pivers.


What size boat are you talking about??? A properly designed trimaran or catamaran will often be faster port to port, but doesn't require sacrificing comfort. Many will argue that a multihull would be more comfortable, rather than less, since there is no constant heeling at 15˚+...

I'd point out that many of the charter industry catamarans are extremely under-canvassed, have very high windage, and really poor sailing characteristics. These boats were designed to do what most charterers have come to want—move them from beach bar to beach bar with enough space that they and their friends can hang out, lounge and party without interfering with each other too much. These boats are sailboats in name only.



A cruising sized multihull is fully capable of dealing with adverse weather at least as well as a monohull. However, the tactics are going to be very different. Raising the boards on centerboard/daggerboard multihulls and lying ahull is an option that isn't really feasible on most monohulls. The best serious piece of heavy weather survival gear on any small sailing craft IMHO is the Jordan Series Drogue.



While slips are more difficult for a multihull to get into, moorage is often not a problem. The shallow draft of most multihulls allows them to use moorings or anchorages that other boats simply can not. I've been to many anchorages, where a monohull wouldn't find space to anchor due to the number of boats already there... and easily found a spot to anchor in... with a draft of 16", I can anchor in 4' of water pretty safely.

One couple I met this past season talked about how their average passage speeds were in the 12-17 knot range. Granted, they were in a pretty big catamaran...but a monohull with the accommodations of their 55' catamaran would be much, much larger....and slower than their boat.
Just back from an island trip on a Chris White Atlantic 55.
She's the ultimate boat. Fast and functional. Short tacking up the channel to make Sopers Hole was ez with the self tending jib. No lines touched. We'd been at Anegada for a few days and left hours after the "fleet". Smoked cats/mono's, pointing higher than most, and they were motor sailing. For the most part I was seeing 10 knots+ in 16-19 knots of wind. Small jib and one reef (i think).

I've owned multi's, mostly cats and one tri. For the most part, if its a standard production boat, like a fountaine pajot, lagoon, or a privilege, they wont make it as a speed demon. Not sure about catana's or other board boats. You'll spend more for a slip and have to preplan where/when you'll be hauled. For the most part, when i needed a slip it was at the end of a pier head. When expecting weather, it was not a warm and fuzzy feeling that she'd ride well. The trade off for speed is NOT worth the cost and non availability of decent dockage (at a reasonable price). If the boat speed were there, then to me its a worth the energy and cash. The only way that happens is in a Chris White type boat. I'm talking about liveaboard, cruising multihulls, not camping. My F27 was a rocketship. Folded nicely allowing for decent dockage. Hard to liveaboard (for me).
Dragonfly seems to have something going in their 1200 series. Living space not so great but speed still there.
Having said all that, i'm heading back to a multi. Speed wins for me. White has the answer w/speed and comfort in the 55. Off to buy that lottery ticket.
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Old 03-14-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bermudahigh View Post
Just back from an island trip on a Chris White Atlantic 55.
She's the ultimate boat. Fast and functional. Short tacking up the channel to make Sopers Hole was ez with the self tending jib. No lines touched. We'd been at Anegada for a few days and left hours after the "fleet". Smoked cats/mono's, pointing higher than most, and they were motor sailing. For the most part I was seeing 10 knots+ in 16-19 knots of wind. Small jib and one reef (i think).

I've owned multi's, mostly cats and one tri. For the most part, if its a standard production boat, like a fountaine pajot, lagoon, or a privilege, they wont make it as a speed demon. Not sure about catana's or other board boats. You'll spend more for a slip and have to preplan where/when you'll be hauled. For the most part, when i needed a slip it was at the end of a pier head. When expecting weather, it was not a warm and fuzzy feeling that she'd ride well. The trade off for speed is NOT worth the cost and non availability of decent dockage (at a reasonable price). If the boat speed were there, then to me its a worth the energy and cash. The only way that happens is in a Chris White type boat. I'm talking about liveaboard, cruising multihulls, not camping. My F27 was a rocketship. Folded nicely allowing for decent dockage. Hard to liveaboard (for me).
Dragonfly seems to have something going in their 1200 series. Living space not so great but speed still there.
Having said all that, i'm heading back to a multi. Speed wins for me. White has the answer w/speed and comfort in the 55. Off to buy that lottery ticket.
I'd point out that some of the large catamarans that are designed for bluewater cruising, like the Catana 431 and Lagoon 440 are poorly designed IMHO. Look at the helm positions on these two boats and compare them to the helm position on the Atlantic series of catamarans, there's a world of difference.

Here is the helm on the lagoon 440, located above and forward of the main cockpiti. The guy in the bright yellow shirt is at the helm.




BTW, here is the Catana 431 I was also criticizing. The helm positions are just forward of the swim platform steps on the hulls. One is by the orange horseshoe buoy and the other is by the ensign flying off the port stern rail.



The helm position can make a huge difference on a stormy passage. Having a sheltered helm position is key to keeping the crew alert, safe and warm. Here is the cockpit helm position on the Atlantic 42 catamaran:



Here is the pilothouse helm position on the Atlantic 42 catamaran.



The Atlantic 42's pilothouse is certainly where I'd prefer to be on a cold winter delivery trip or during a gale...

Now this isn't to say that a good helm isn't available on a more reasonably priced boat. Just take a look at the Gemini 105Mc catamaran.



On a recent delivery I did, back in December, we buddy boated with a Catana 431 owned by my friend Art. He was dressed like an eskimo for most of the delivery. Compare that to the helm on my friend's Gemini, which I was on. The helm is under the hardtop bimini, and can be fully enclosed...I was in shirt sleeves and enjoying the heat coming from the hydronic cabin heater while working in the enclosed cockpit of the Gemini.
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Old 03-14-2010
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Agreed on poor design on Lagoon etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
I'd point out that some of the large catamarans that are designed for bluewater cruising, like the Catana 431 and Lagoon 440 are poorly designed IMHO. Look at the helm positions on these two boats and compare them to the helm position on the Atlantic series of catamarans, there's a world of difference.

Here is the helm on the lagoon 440, located above and forward of the main cockpiti. The guy in the bright yellow shirt is at the helm.




BTW, here is the Catana 431 I was also criticizing. The helm positions are just forward of the swim platform steps on the hulls. One is by the orange horseshoe buoy and the other is by the ensign flying off the port stern rail.



The helm position can make a huge difference on a stormy passage. Having a sheltered helm position is key to keeping the crew alert, safe and warm. Here is the cockpit helm position on the Atlantic 42 catamaran:



Here is the pilothouse helm position on the Atlantic 42 catamaran.



The Atlantic 42's pilothouse is certainly where I'd prefer to be on a cold winter delivery trip or during a gale...

Now this isn't to say that a good helm isn't available on a more reasonably priced boat. Just take a look at the Gemini 105Mc catamaran.



On a recent delivery I did, back in December, we buddy boated with a Catana 431 owned by my friend Art. He was dressed like an eskimo for most of the delivery. Compare that to the helm on my friend's Gemini, which I was on. The helm is under the hardtop bimini, and can be fully enclosed...I was in shirt sleeves and enjoying the heat coming from the hydronic cabin heater while working in the enclosed cockpit of the Gemini.
When i first crewed on the Atlantic 42 from Florida to Newport, I asked about foul weather gear. The owner laughed and said we've got set of fiberglass gear that fits all. He was kidding as you still need to get out and reef/adjust as needed.
In our run from Oxford to Bermuda, there's been the occasional wave that runs over the forward cockpit in the 42. That happens less in the 55. Its nice to go inside and turn up the heat/music. Chris White has something special going on.

The lagoon (upstairs) design makes me chuckle. No further comment as I've never sailed that version lagoon. Never sailed a Catana, liked them because of the use of boards.

I read and enjoyed your delivery in the Gemini. At that time, I was still trying to break out and head south myself. Almost made it.

Pics are from our Bermuda run in the 42. First few days were nasty/ugly.
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Old 03-15-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mackconsult View Post

I know that tri's and cat's can flip
If an amazingly incompetent or victory greedy skipper is at the helm, yes, they can flip.

What about monohulls? Can't they flip? Loose keels? Sink?

Just out of curiosity, I've often sailed my tiny Nugget24 with full sail under conditions where similar sized monohulls where flying 2nd reefs, heeling at 30+ş and and dragging their tails at 5 knots...

Anyway, It's pretty obvious what my recomendation will be:

If you wan't to go slow, heeled, confined to a cramped cockpit and an uncomfortable cabin sole, and on a boat that depends on a counterweight (that can fail) to keep itself upright, go for a monohull...

Morring issues and the works are nothing but excuses from people looking for a justification not to have a multihull... I sure can't keep mine in a marina, well, I keep it in a swinging mooring...
Cheers!
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