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Full or fin keel?

191K views 846 replies 107 participants last post by  mstern 
#1 ·
Can somebody pro/con a full vs. fin keel for a newbie (will learn to sail on said boat) and taking it thru the Caribbean? All I can seem to come up with so far is fin keel is better to the wind, and a full keel will protect your rudder.
 
#666 ·
Just read "full or Fin Keel" from end to start. A lot of interesting posts and many of them are great for the debate. I see both sides on fin and full having owned both. I can't wait to talk about the bad things along with the good things of the new boat and I will in time. I think this debate would be far better if everyone talked about what they have found not so good in their boats design. Lets everyone take to the couch and and tell your story to the shrinks about the design problems you see in your boat.

Our last boat a Mason 44, a cut away full keel boat sailed all over the world which made one circumnavigation, two Atlantic crossings and one trip through the pacific..

Things I didn't like about her. Went to weather lousy, would stall at times even when not pointed high going to weather. Why? Just not enough water line and she would hobby horse often when the wrong series of waves went under her. I'm talking 2 to 3 meter waves at lets say at 6 seconds and 60 degree point of sail. It was hard to make head way and easier to heave to or run. But in some situations you have to try and sail into a front. Running the engine under sail helped but did not solve the problem entirely. CCA boats just do not have enough waterline. Still a great offshore boat.

Cheers
 
#667 ·
Still disappointed you can't get a boat like a cheribini for under a MILLION bucks. Understand narrow - less room inside
Internal ballasted sheel keel- more engineering and expense.

But high aspect fin- have to deal with draft restrictions
Full or cut away- don't point as well, more wetted surface ( parasitic drag) downwind
centerboard- more complexity, harder to get adequate righting arm.
Never owned a centerboard but have all of the rest.
Wonder if a cheribini like boat of 36-40' without the extensive wood work and detail would sell enough to make a production run cost effective in today's market.
 
#668 ·
What bugs me is people think full keels, ALL full keels automatically don't point very well. My boat with main and working jib gets 35degrees off the wind...but closer as a cutter rig. This isn't pinching it, but moving along comfortably. My boat is a high aspect w/a large fore triangle (J measurement=47% length of the boat) either or both of those would make for good pointing ability.
My keel isn't a "cut away" but isn't a "long full keel".......the deepest point of my keel is the base of the rudder post (maybe that great big huge rudder is why my boat isn't hard to get across the wind, another thin attributed to ALL full keels)
 
#669 ·
Didn't know there was any boat that will sail to weather at 35 degrees in open ocean where there is 2 meter or better slop. Even the Mason 44 could sail to 35 degrees in front of Port Townsend or the Hood Canal, but never under ocean conditions, there sure is a big difference. Now that we know there is one boat out there that can sail at 35 degrees in open ocean does anyone else know of more?

We sailed our Mason in a conservative manner even in a following sea. But if we had left too much sail up I know that a full cutaway would have wanted to round up when sailing down an ocean swell. Out of the boats we know of that have been knocked down it was because the skipper had too much sail up and the design of the boat could not handle it and therefor rounded up.

I'm looking forward in the new boat to see how she handles more sail with the centerboard up and the leeward dagger board down in a following sea and a broad reach. So far the reports are good but until I've done it myself it is just hear say.
 
#674 ·
Didn't know there was any boat that will sail to weather at 35 degrees in open ocean where there is 2 meter or better slop. Even the Mason 44 could sail to 35 degrees in front of Port Townsend or the Hood Canal, but never under ocean conditions, there sure is a big difference. Now that we know there is one boat out there that can sail at 35 degrees in open ocean does anyone else know of more?
...
A modern performance cruiser, if it is specially good going upwind can do that providing it has enough wind. Last year I had a very enjoyable sail between Islands making 6.5K against 1.5/2.0 m short period waves with 18K apparent wind pointing at 27/28º. In the Atlantic, even with bigger waves, but with normal ocean waves (and not those nasty ones you have in the Med) I would be pointing probably the same but doing 7/7.5K.

Hannah, sailing a modern performance cruiser has its advantages:D...as well as its disadvantages. Pointing and speed are the advantages. A more limited carrying load capacity a smaller tankage and a bigger draft the disadvantages.

Regards

Paulo
 
#670 · (Edited)
Hannah- sounds like you have a great boat. Was back and forth between the Boreal and Outbound. Talked it through repetitively with the admiral + hope we made a good decision and hope you did too. Looking at blogs of owners of both boats ( I'm not to good reading english let alone french) seems we will both be OK. Agree with you the spread sheets don't matter -it's what's your noon to noon and how you feel doing it. How is your galley arranged?
On some full keel boats I have had,especially the double enders, didn't like the way they would squat when running and long bowsprits make picking up mooring more difficult as you need a bridle.
 
#675 ·
Outbound, Glad to hear you found the boat you and the admiral really want to sail. It is so important that the both of you are happy with the purchase. We spend a lot of money on our dreams and to know you made a purchase that both can live with even though there can be some things that are not perfect when you get to know that boat. But the selection is a moment of satisfaction for both crew members. You have a beautiful boat and one we would have considered if we had not had such a desire for the aluminum center boarder.

We decided on our new boat choice for many reasons. Both being 60 we wanted to have a new experience in our years of sailing, sort of feeling new energy in what we love to do. This will be our last purchase of a serious boat. We think we made the right choice for us but until I sail her seriously I won't know if it will fit us as we envision. Good thing is if we are uncomfortable with her I already have buyers for her at more than we payed for her, few boats are that way but the small market for a boat like ours is very strong. There are sailors out there who want to do things far more adventurous than we do who want a boat such as the Boreal. But we are excited about sailing a modern designed boat such as ours, we are experienced sailors of long distant cruising and look forward to the benefits that boats like our offer. We were convinced of this after our last cruise through the S. Pacific and seeing all the French aluminum centerboards going every where one can imagine and always happy with their product.

I noticed you mentioned that you thought the centerboard boat may be a bit more difficult to sail, I think that is what you were saying. I thought the same also at first but after sailing the companies boat and talking first hand with other Boreal owners who are going everywhere I think it is an easy boat to sail in all conditions. Guess we will be finding out soon. We are looking forward to doing a hard month or so of sea trials and enjoying the learning process of a different designed boat than what we have always sailed. A big part of our next adventure is the boat itself.

Oh, on the galley. We know it is not what we are used too. We have always cooked well on passage and will change our ways to the European style of cooking good meals before passage and putting them away for rough weather. Boreal has bent over backwards in making a more secure galley for us and we appreciate the effort.

Good luck with the new boat, enjoy the adventure.
 
#671 ·
To get to know my boat better I put up too much sail to see what I could learn........firstly it takes alot to get the boat over to 40 (from it's preferred 30 degrees) and keep it there......it would round up when it got over to 45 degree.
Because of the weight of my boat it isn't affected as much by 2'chop as would a light weight fin keel (someone mentioned the "pounding" fin keels were known for earlier in this thread). There is alot of flare at the bow with the original intention of keeping the cockpit dry, the extra buoyancy there would case problems if the boat did not have a decent amount of chain in the chain locker (some lighter boats are designed with the intention of rode/chain combinations)....I have heard it refereed to as "saucy". Going into 15' waves at about 4kts under power, the cockpit remained relatively.
 
#673 ·
Think pounding is more a reflection of the entry of the boat throught the water and it's dynamics. Both the Boreal and the Outbound make every effort in design to have favorable gyradius ( weight in center of boat). Both have fine entries. Neither will pound. Appendages are very different. Similarly Cheribinis due to extremely fine entry and narrow hull were known to not pound. Boreal is light,somewhat Outbound heavier, Cheribini much heavier. Due to design all will be very comfortable boats. Agree Outbound in part makes use of it's weight to improve ride but that it not the major determinant in my understanding.
Weight in a cruising boat is an interesting thing. You spend huge money getting rid of weight. Then put heavy fuel, water,stores,anchor chain in it. Did a Bermuda on a tri. Captain/owner was concerned about the weight we had in our bags as we carried our kit aboard. He was absolutely right in the setting of a race.
 
#676 ·
Hmmmmm, so if building an old boat out of newer space age materials is still making it an old boat design......Why the hell are folks building the old "J-Boat" from the early 1900 America's cup boats?!?!?!?!? Or has the rules of the J-class boats changed such that they can? I thought the basic design, specs etc were kept the same, but hulls made of aluminum, carbon spars, laminate sails etc, but still needing to come in using the original design specs of that class.

I did see a full'ish keel boat today, boy was that a deep sucker! 6-7' on a mid 30' boat. Meanwhile a bit earlier a DuFour 34(e) was put in the water that has a blinking shoal keel! Shallower than my 28' boat. Has a blinken gift rating to boot! I can still beat it boat for boat, when it should be a good minute a mile faster than me! But that is another story.

Marty
 
#690 · (Edited)
Hmmmmm, so if building an old boat out of newer space age materials is still making it an old boat design......Why the hell are folks building the old "J-Boat" from the early 1900 America's cup boats?!?!?!?!? Or has the rules of the J-class boats changed such that they can? I thought the basic design, specs etc were kept the same, but hulls made of aluminum, carbon spars, laminate sails etc, but still needing to come in using the original design specs of that class.
Good question, Marty. You forgot to mention that building an old J-Boat like this can't be done without a lot more $$$ than you'd need to buy an Oyster!!... :eek:

The answer is that some of these old Class designs were almost perfection in themselves (thinking J-Boats, 22-square-metres, 6-metres, Flying Fifteens, Dragons, etc.) and being such incredible fun to race meant that enough have survived over the years in various parts of the world to keep the Class alive. Clever people in the Class Associations then tweak the rules enough to allow advances in materials to be used in construction whilst maintaining the original design (complete with known flaws in some cases!) intact.

If you're curious, have a look around the CIM website.

Even though boat-speed and handling is roughly the same in the same wind conditions, it's a very, very different sailing experience racing to windward in an over-canvassed heavyweight Gentleman's Yacht one day and a lightweight Plastic Fantastic the next - particularly in a stiff breeze. Personal taste.. that's why people spend their fortunes doing it.

Paulo should try it one day. ;) :D
 
#679 · (Edited)
Do yo mean that the hundred year old designed William Atkin's make 35º true wind against 2.0m short waves?:D:D:D

Believe in what you want. I would take for an ignorant any person that think that the performance of an old designed full keeler that was not even a race boat in its days can be remotely compared with the performance of any modern performance cruising sailboat. If the boat is specially good upwind the deference will be huge in pointing ability.

Anyway I had said 27/28º. If we consider 27 (the boat was oscillating between 25 and 29 to pass the waves powerfully without losing speed) that is properly a more correct value you will have a true wind speed of 12.6K to a True wind angle of 40.6º. Even if the apparent angle was 28º it would give a true wind of 42º. I have sailed enough boats, including performance boats to know that is a very good performance given the sea condition. My boat is particularly good upwind, it is a modern performance cruiser with 2.25m of draft and Kevlar racing sails.

My previous boat, a 2002 Bavaria 36 was able to do over a plotted coursed course and angle of about 45 degrees (in normal Ocean conditions, not on the ones that I was talking about). I know for experience that the Bavaria 36 pointed better about 5º degrees of what an Oceanis 395 can do.

An Oceanis 395, the one with the deep draft, will outperform by many degrees an hundred years old Wilian Atkin's designed 36ft. My current boat outperform the Bavaria 36 (with long keel and premium sails) by about 8 to 5 degrees, much more in difficult conditions like the ones I was describing.

But of course, anyone is free to think what he wants. Look for a recent thread about pointing ability and plotted courses and you will come back to reality.

Regards

Paulo
 
#678 ·
Hannah2- You folks are much more experienced than my wife and I. Life should always be a learning curve. I don't know if ultimately the Boreal would be more difficult to sail. We felt at this time it might be too big a mouthful to easily swallow whereas the Outbound is a fast, very comfortable boat with less variables to deal with. It's speed,size, equipment, design puts it at the edge of our comfort zone as regards ? too much to handle. It's the largest boat I will ever own and first I would have no concerns about sailing "around the clock". Similar to the Boreal there is a small active market for them. Very few are listed as they are sold before listing occurs. Compared to you we are newbies. Decided to ride a Mercedes not a Lambo for our first big trip down the road. We too are in our 60's. Looking forward to all powered winches,dutchman,every lead aft but still in a boat that we can handle if everything breaks. Keel wet and stick dry- all the best to you and yours
 
#680 · (Edited)
...It's the largest boat I will ever own and first I would have no concerns about sailing "around the clock". Similar to the Boreal there is a small active market for them. Very few are listed as they are sold before listing occurs. Compared to you we are newbies....
If we come to car analogy your's would be a good sedan designed 10 years ago. Hannas's boat would be a modern four well drive with a powerful engine. I don't think that the performance of the Boreal (except downwind) would be better than the one from the Outbound (as few four will drives will out perform 10 years old good sedan). The difference regarding the Boreal will concern a bigger flexibility, a much stronger hull to impact and the possibility to explore much more safely remote places, due not only by that difference in resistance but also due to its very reduced draft and the possibility of beaching the boat.

Face to bad weather the boat can take refuge at 5 m of the shore where the wind and waves will be much lesser while other boat as to stay 100m away, exposed to much stronger winds and swell. That's why that comparison with a powerful 4 wheel drive makes sense;).

Regards

Paulo
 
#683 ·
:puke

Wuffy,

You are so out of touch with the 4 wheel cruising world. We are not talking about Most people here! I can tell you that sailors buying expedition boats know what they are doing and have far more experience than most people including you and me. You are always negative in any post you make and always defending your beautiful boat when you don't need to. We know your boat is one of the greatest ever designed. That being said you need to know its limitations and like any of our boats it has limitations, learn them.

Who cares if most people don't realize the true power and fury nature is capable of. I think PCP was trying to compare differences in boat designs. Not about most people, he didn't mention people at all . But seeing you were talking most people, I can promise you that the few who buy 4 wheel boats and high performance cruising boats fully understand the power of nature as they have been seriously sailing a long time. They understand how their boat handles in serious weather and the risks of maybe having to sail in that weather. They also understand they they can't go anywhere only fools think they can go anywhere at any time.

You need to know that 99% of those who are out sailing long distance and know what they are doing far more than you or me do not come to the internet sites. Maybe some day if you ever do set sail you will understand.

You have a great boat but honestly I would rather hear what troubles you about your boat, that way we all can learn something.

Shed boys don't whine.

Cheers
 
#682 ·
Paulo- again we will agree to disagree. Would note builder has several orders for Outbound 46s to be built after mine. I've tried to explain to you why this hard fact is true. Boat is much more expensive than buying used.Usually none on used market. Final price about the same as Hannah's excellent boat. Can you explain why repetitively people are making a decision you think is illogical? Of the ones I have been in contact with Outbound owners are educated,forward thinking people not put off by new technologies or designs.
 
#684 · (Edited)
I like the Outbound. I don't think it is illogical to buy that boat that I consider a very good one. I didn't know that you had bought it new. The only thing I said is that that design is 12 years old and that in my opinion you can notice that.

Comparing with the European market the American market is a smaller and there are a lot less competition in what regards for instance boats like the Outbound. In Europe a brand, even one with expensive boats like HR, Malo, Najad or Southerly could not have the same model for 12 years without updating the hull and keel according with the latest design developments. Costumers would stop to buy that boat to buy more modern ones from the competition. Six years is pretty much the limit for almost all. More than that and the designs become out dated.

That is what I said and I did not wanted to imply by any means that your boat is not a great boat.

Regards

Paulo
 
#685 ·
Paulo- OK agree different markets also different environments. Still, believe for reasons mentioned before this boat makes more sense for me. Coming from China or France makes little difference to me in New England. Design 1y,15 y or 150y old doesn't matter to me. Only question is this the best boat for the use I am going to put it to.
Wuff- Hannah and Paulo have different knowledge bases and more experience than either of us. I think it wise to respect their opinions. I do agree with you that being driven by the market or desire to have "new and improved" when it doesn't fit your needs does not make sense. I know as a liveaboard we will not be circumspect about weight. We will eventually screw something up and need repairs, things will wear out, we like hot showers (even plumbed for washer/dryer) and AC in the heat, a furnace in the cold we like an easily run boat we understand and is beautiful in ours eyes, we like to cook but cleaning not so much ,we will never do the Southern Ocean, have no interest in high latitude sailing but will catch weather-extreme at times. The new boat is aimed at the market of two people living aboard for extended times and traveling country to country. It allows long term guests but optimizes that type of two person creature comfort cruising without sacrificing much if anything in speed nor seaworthiness. My discussion with Paulo is not about if newer boats are better but what better means. It's in this issue we disagree.
 
#686 ·
Outbound,

I like what you said about the market being driven by the desire to have newest and most improved but what we need is what fits our needs. But one thing I noticed in Europe is that sailors are really into sailboats far more than we are here. They have gone sailboat crazy and they have an astounding love about being on the water. They will sail a barn door if they have too, it's just crazy over there.

Now I'm sure some Europeans are just into new is cool and do not know a square knot from a weather fax. But so many Europeans are really into sailing well and buy their boat for the reasons that fit their needs. Those needs are different than ours in lots of little ways but in the end they sail to the same places as we do. I agree with Paulo that the European market is very sound for new designed boats. Look at the companies having a hard time in Europe and they are the ones more traditional design. If our market in N. America ever becomes strong again it will have to do what Paulo talks about, change designs as quick as new and better ideas come out to make it. Now that said I do not believe that everything new is better and mistakes will be made.

I love it that the market over there includes good sound sailboats at a price lots of folks can spend. We desperately need that in N. America or else we are not going to have any thing left to buy used or new.

Let us hope that more people understand what their needs are in a boat and get what they really need. I get a little nervous with our new boat on that note.

Hope I wasn't too hard on Wuffy but heck I want to know what he really thinks of his boat, the good and the not so good.

Cheers
 
#687 ·
Not exactly on-topic but one of the things I like most about Paulo's Interesting boats thread is the exposure to the European market and the different mindset over there.

As a result my 'dream boat' - ie no financial restraints - would in all likelihood be from across the pond..

Hannah.. assume you're going to sail the boat out from Europe when you take delivery? Will she end up back in the PNW?
 
#693 · (Edited by Moderator)
The interesting boat thread has to be one of the greatest threads on sailing of all time. Eventually I think N. Americans will look to the European market more if they want a new boat. And with the quality of the N. American used market aging and the amount of work required to bring a boat up to where it needs to be it is starting to get slim pickings out there. I'm not talking about 3000 dollar boats but the boats that most want now in the 40 foot range. A lot of them are 20, 30 to 40 years old and getting very tired. The new boat market I believe will pick up not because the economy is picking up but because a lot of people who want to do some serious sailing be it day, coastal or long range cruising will have to take a serious look at all the options available. That's what may have happened in Europe maybe they ran out of good used boats and turned in the other direction. Paulo would know more on that. If N. Americans do start to look to Europe in numbers it can only be good for the new boat market here. Designers and boat building companies here will be encouraged to start up some newer designs and build them. I hope that anyway and I hope they will build quality if it happens.

Faster, I don't know if the new boat will make it back to the North West. We have talked about it as an option but we talk lots of ideas for the next 5 years. But we are taking it one day at a time. If we have plans it will be to leave Europe when the crossing season starts to the carib then through the Canal and back to the Pacific as fast as we need to go. We would like to get up to the Carolines this trip and maybe from there we would decide to head North then East back to the PNW. It would be fun to sail into the Straits after five years away. But who knows, we are really interested in the rivers of Borneo and PNG and maybe from there to S. Africa. We have even talked about hanging out in Europe for a year or if we get through the Panama Canal and have had enough we could bash up to the Sea of Cortez which we love and just becoming Cortez bums like many do. If we were 40 I'd be heading for the high lats, no I guess not! I love the warm sea and the tropical beautiful women. :cool: Someone else can have the polar bears.
 
#688 ·
Was sad to see Malo go down. H - Love your spirit. Looked at a bunch of european boats including yours and some from N.Z./Oz. But the hard work was being honest with myself,accepting all the input from my loved ones, people who work on boats, other sailors and the industry types and thinking about the totality of this purchase not just how the boat moves through the water. Still totally convinced I made the right choice for the Admiral and me.
Hey- if we ever get together - Race ya
 
#694 ·
hannah, Jeanneau and Beneteau are building a number of the 30-40' boats in South Carolina. Although it might be north carolina! do not remember totally off the top of my head. The smaller sizes are not worth the cost to hip across that atlantic. I believe another European company is building stock Mini 6.5 boats in Texas, as again, a 22' boat is not worth the cost to ship across per say. Altho not sure how the Flying tiger 10m was getting shipped across the pacific to here.....none the less one is looking at 10-20K to ship boats from Europe to here in the nw etc. Hence why a number of years ago, beneteau started up the plant in SC, WHen things got slow, Jeanneau joined the plant so both could be better setup to compete here. 36' Jeanneaus the price did close to 20K less for a US built one than one built in Europe. The only thing built here per say is the hull and deck. The wood parts are still made in Europe, but shipped here on pallets and installed.

But I do agree, I do not really see any US companies that are building anything high tech per say. C&C and Tartan kinda sorta was for a bit......the new 101 looks promising. Santa Cruz has not taken off with any of those newer models that are nice and reasonably fast. Even the New York YC when they had a boat built for them, went with Swan! THere were a few that went after the project, including one NA setup, but even at half the cost did not get the contract!

In the end, I will prefer a fin over a full'ish keel. ALtho if I could somehow afford an old 12M, would settle for a 6M.......something about one of them.......But for general cruising and sailing, My Jeanneau works fine, altho wish I had a newer version!

marty
 
#699 · (Edited)
....
But I do agree, I do not really see any US companies that are building anything high tech per say.....

marty
Marty I guess you forgot J boats the American boat that is more sold in Europe than in the US:D

For some of the most interesting models they just make them in France. I mean not in the US and France but only in France. If you want a J122, one of my preferred boats, they just ship you one from France:eek:

Also I guess we can consider Corsair trimarans hig-tech boats. The only problem with Corsair is that they are in the US. I guess that they should do the same as J boats and move to Europe, at least for the bigger boats. I am sure the sales would increase substantially.

The problem in the US is the market I mean the proportion between motor boats and sail boats. Guys that have money buy in America a hugely bigger proportion of motor boats compared with sailboats.

Some years ago I had a look at all Boat show data in what concerning the percentage of sailboats compared with motorboats and the difference between Europe and US was huge not 2 times less, maybe 10 times less. That is the real problem. You need money, lots of it flowing to have a flourishing market. You need that the guys that have the money to change his boat anytime a more faster or nicer boat comes to the market start to buy sailing boats instead of motorboats or fast cars.

Without that you will not have a competitive market. imagine what would happen to the American automobile market if many didn't change for a new ride after 3 or 4 years and started to maintain and recover 20, 30 and 40 years old cars. Imagine all those huge car junkyards empty and all those cars circulating. Can you imagine what would happen to the competitiveness of the American car Industry face to others where they ditch older cars on a junkyard and keep buying new cars? I mean regarding means for innovating and researching?

I guess that is the American problem in what regards sailboats competitiveness: General interest in sailing.

Compare interest in sailing in US and France and you will understand why sailboat industry is so big in France and why the market is so competitive. Not only in France. The interest in Sailing in Italy and North of Europe is also big. Look at a small country like Denmark and look at the huge production of high quality top sail boats: X yachts, Dragonfly, Luffe, Nordship, Nordborg and I am sure there are much more small companies that I don't know about. Imagine that on a country with a bit more than 5 million people and you get the general picture.

Regards

Paulo
 
#695 ·
blt2ski, Yes we have a half dozen or so builders and I guess that is better than none at all. When you look at Europe though I see more than that just in the north of France. Maybe Paulo knows how many sailboat companies building boats from 10 meters up in Europe. Most of those companies seem to do well in a crowded market.
I don't think the Europeans have more money than we have at hand and the population base is close to ours. N. Americans love to sail too so I can't understand why our market is so bad. Maybe it is because we have lost our imagination or just isolated, I don't know, I wish I did know the answers.

When I read the blogs on these sailing forums the folks from N. America are still thinking old design for the most part. Old designs work very well in many cases, I've sailed them for 40 years. But I think we are going to have to get the bug and see what the rest of the world is seeing that we are not. If N. Americans can find out what the Europeans see in the new designs maybe we will get excited enough for adventure capitalists to front the money for new designs and new companies building more outstanding boats here in the new world. I like what they are doing over on Attainable Adventure Cruising in putting together a great seaworthy boat as more of an entry into long distance sailing for $200,000 USA. At least someone is trying hard and if they make it all come true I hope they build them in N. America.:)
 
#696 ·
Hannah,

Same thing with cars and trucks to a degree, their is the North American market, then there is the REST of the world market. neither is the same overall. You can get a toyota celica last I heard with 4-5 engine options, NONE of which are available here in the NA. Smaller cars wither turbo diesels that get twice the mpg of the NA gas rigs! Or rigs with twice the HP as we have here with better mpg's.......

Boats are kind of the same design build quality if you will to a degree. It an us against them kind of world......now if we can get folks to go metric.......maybe.........

marty
 
#700 ·
Beyond the boat another problem for US buyers is the totality of trying to spec a semi custom boat built in another country, coordinating sale of prior boat, importation,warrenty work, insurance,financing and service after sale etc. Large production builders like B+J have this worked out but smaller builders-not so much. Making multiple varied innovations to accomendate my 6' and wife's 4'10" as well as sourcing from around the world was easy with Phil.Walking through the "soft costs" and making use of cheap money with investment returns much higher than loan money was easy working with people here. Don't think that will be the case until the infra structure for boat building beyond just the molds and tooling in the US is once again established. Valiant had a 35y run with boats that were little changed in basic design in large part because they did it once and did it right. This occurred at a time of massive innovation in N.A.s thinking and the US market was hot.
 
#701 ·
Paulo,

I would agree that J-Boats is probably building a reasonable high tech newish boat. Even still, when you look at the new models, it is J-boat. Look at Elan and Beneteau for two, and they have boats that cruise, then some race, and a couple do both to a degree. X-Yacht is getting into this mold now that they are getting bigger per say too.

Most of the J's I see around puget sound any how, are the what I would call more full bore racers, 105's for example. There is still sorta a J30 class still racing, lots of 24's, just enough 109's to make a 1d race every two yrs or so. I ca say the same for the b 36.7......C&C 115......mybe all of 7 or 8 in the whole of the salish sea.

But I would say most buy PB's here. As the wind will be light enough, or yo have to fight currents, that to get anywhere, you motor a lot! I know of one fellow that has been racing his 40' IOR style boat for 20 some odd years, he is looking to get a mid 40' sticker to cruise in! makes better time to and from etc. He can get a nice set up one for less money with more space than an equal sailboat. altho it doe cost way mre to operate........

marty
 
#704 · (Edited)
Paulo,

I would agree that J-Boats is probably building a reasonable high tech newish boat. Even still, when you look at the new models, it is J-boat. Look at Elan and Beneteau for two, and they have boats that cruise, then some race, and a couple do both to a degree. X-Yacht is getting into this mold now that they are getting bigger per say too.

...
marty
The J122 is a performance cruiser that can race while the J111 and J105 are more of a racer.

The only reason that prevents J boats to make what Xyachts do, with a full line of racers, performance cruisers and cruisers is ....MARKET, I guess. Simply there is not a big enough market for more expensive and fast sailboats in America.

Some time back I talked with the Salona guys regarding the American market. They said to me that they were more interested in the Asian market that was a lot more interesting. They had only sold a boat to America but several to Asia and Australia.

The owner of that American Salona 37 is a member of this forum. He says wonders about his boat and even so they only managed to sell one:rolleyes:

Regards

Paulo
 
#702 ·
Depends on where you sail. If I was doing an ocean passage I'd want a full keel, a fin in heavy seas is much more apt to be squirrelly. If you are not on open seas a fin is much more maneuverable. I had a Cal 9.2 that turned on a dime. But in big following seas one must be really be diligent at the helm. It's a great deal of work. The above 3/4 keel and skeg hung rudders are a good compromise. I plan on blue water cruising, Bermuda...ocean crossings. My choice for that is full...
 
#705 ·
Daledog, Many of us here in N. America thought the same as you and most still do about the full keel/fin keel in heavy seas etc. But like outbound said those ideas are outdated. The new designed boats being built over in Europe have solved those problems for open ocean crossing. And we here in N. America still remain clueless that for the last 10 years on the other side of the pond they have been enjoying wonderfully built boats that behave better in many ways than our traditional boats on all points of sail in big water as well as small water.

Boy if you have not read the "interesting boat" post take a look at it there is lot of good stuff in it.

cheers
 
#703 ·
would note boat like Hannah's with dagger boards aft are said to track wonderfully in following sea. My new boat given hull shape aft and rudder design also is known to track and surf without issue. Properly designed bulbed fins and modern centerboards with daggerboards seem to have this issue solved. Ability to point and made good days run in light/moderate air remain failings of most full keeled boats. Keeping boat comfortable at or beyond hull speed remain favorable attributes of outbound,boreal and modern crop of euro boats.
 
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