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  #161  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
It is really incredible that someone can believe that from 1800 to today nothing as been learned in what regards sailing boats , stability and particularly dynamic stability.

It is also hard to believe that someone that is obviously not a professional in sail design can believe that the best professional in that area, that design blue-water boats, don't know what they are doing and are designing today worst bluewater boats than what they were doing 30 years ago, not to mention 200 years ago

One of the most trusted bluewater boats are the Halberg-Rassy. Back in 1982 they did not use a full keel anymore and their 42ft had 3.78m beam.




Today its new boat, the smaller 415 has 4.11m of beam and use a modern bulbed fin keel.


And this is not an isolated case but the norm in what refers to modern bluewater cruising boats. Sure, you can find narrower boats still made today but almost in all cases are old designs that are still produced today and that don't reflect the state of the Art neither the actual knowledge in hydrodynamics and boat design.

Happily there are very few like you, I mean that believe that know more than the best boat designers on the market, otherwise bluewater brands like Najad, Malo, HR, Moody or Oyster would still be making the same type of boats they have made 30 or 40 years ago

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, did you ever consider that MARKETING might have something to do with the new designs?
Many people like you believe everything the manufacturers tell you that you should believe.

Last edited by GBurton; 03-27-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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  #162  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Once a couple bought an old mould from a company that failed. The design was a modified version of a 40+ year old rescue vessel. It became probably the most promoted sailboat in history, even hitting Time magazine. It was the Westsail 32.
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  #163  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Once a couple bought an old mould from a company that failed. The design was a modified version of a 40+ year old rescue vessel. It became probably the most promoted sailboat in history, even hitting Time magazine. It was the Westsail 32.
And very good boats they are. Thanks for the history lesson.
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  #164  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Burton, Why would the manufacturers (mostly) all agree that they would rather have people buying fin and other keel types as opposed to full keels? As long as they are promoting their boats and making money the full vs. fin wouldn't matter. I really don't think there is some marketing conspiracy to get people to buy a certain boat type. It's just the direction of the technology.
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  #165  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Boats are in most cases the products of racing rules. In the 50's and 60's the CCA rule helped create the type of long keel boats that were common. IOR favored a different type of boat entirely. Now there are more designs that are not fashioned after any rule and efficiency is the goal in many cases. Dragging a long keel around is not for the majority.

Burton

You are the one that suggested that marketing hype and believing manufacturers is not a good idea. I was just pointing out that the boat most promoted in memory is the Westsail 32, your favorite I believe.
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  #166  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Chadfunk48 View Post
Burton, Why would the manufacturers (mostly) all agree that they would rather have people buying fin and other keel types as opposed to full keels? As long as they are promoting their boats and making money the full vs. fin wouldn't matter. I really don't think there is some marketing conspiracy to get people to buy a certain boat type. It's just the direction of the technology.
I think its probably more expensive to build a full keel boat than a fin/bulb. Also, I never said it was a marketing conspiracy but rather that some people (sometimes newbies) will believe what they are being told ..ie "fast is fun" or "full keel boats are slow and out of date" etc etc.

You get the idea.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Boats are in most cases the products of racing rules. In the 50's and 60's the CCA rule helped create the type of long keel boats that were common. IOR favored a different type of boat entirely. Now there are more designs that are not fashioned after any rule and efficiency is the goal in many cases. Dragging a long keel around is not for the majority.

Burton

You are the one that suggested that marketing hype and believing manufacturers is not a good idea. I was just pointing out that the boat most promoted in memory is the Westsail 32, your favorite I believe.
Are you saying that you agree with me?
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  #168  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Re: Marketing - it is aimed at "most" people. Most people do not actually blue water sail, even though most may want a "blue" boat. Most people actually park in a marina, and coastal sail occasionally or rarely - preferably on a blue sky day. So, maneuverability is important, speed is important when out there, and beamy is important for amenities.

If it happens to require less material to build, that is fine also.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Having read all the various arguments in this most excellent thread thus far...I can only say that in my opinion neither the full-keel/ heavy-displacement folks nor the bulb-keel/light displacement/wide beam proponents have made a strong enough case to cast one's lot with one or the other...
There is evidence that seems to favor either one side or the other depending on the goals of the crew.... such as...take the long off-shore cruising couple or 3-4 four non-professional sailors in heavier full-keel boats who aren't in a race...but just trying to make a good offshore crossing or regional offshore cruise/jump... who may arrive a few days later...but perhaps had a less testosterone-pumping cruise... whereas the lighter wide beam race boat with gung-ho race crew and well-funded clients will likely complete the run days faster due to their boat speed and other amenities like satellite updates by a weather team onshore...and lots of race-driven "point A to point B" adrenaline/camaraderie....perhaps allowing them fly in the face of continuous rough-weather pounding like beam breaking waves hour after hour and so forth...

That said...I am looking forward to getting my (new) old '66 Columbia 40's rails wet this summer after she gets some work done on her and a clean bill of health...standing on her deck the other day in middle of a wide river when it was gusting to 20 mph...I was in disbelief at her solid, statuesque feel...though I had just moved up from a 8,400 lb to 18,200 lbs gross boat it was much more rock solid than I imagined and damn nice at anchor when it's blowin'...and I like to just be out on a boat at anchor sometimes...
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Last edited by souljour2000; 03-27-2012 at 04:16 PM.
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  #170  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Full? Fin?
What about Bilge!!!!!
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