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  #171  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I love the idea of bilge keelers though have never owned one...but damn...we don't wanna be threadkillers do we...? I've already put us in jeopardy with my non-committal statements in my post above without bringing the bilgers...
now what round was it...?
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  #172  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Paulo, did you ever consider that MARKETING might have something to do with the new designs?
Many people like you believe everything the manufacturers tell you that you should believe.
I don’t get it. It seems to me that Halberg Rassy would have an advantage in marketing different boats (old designed boats) if those boats were really better.

But if you have any doubts and think there is a conspiracy theory of all boat builders (including bluewater brands) regarding selling worse boats than what they used to do 30 years ago, just look at what are designing the most talented XXI century Naval architects and I don’t mean the boats that are commissioned by the big brands but the ones that they make out of pleasure just to make a stand in what they believe or one offs for very good sailors and guys that can discuss with them the ideal cruiser for the kind of sail they want to do (and that includes many bluewater boats).

Look at all those boats and tell me if you see any heavy full keeler.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-27-2012 at 07:11 PM.
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  #173  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Boats are in most cases the products of racing rules. In the 50's and 60's the CCA rule helped create the type of long keel boats that were common. IOR favored a different type of boat entirely. Now there are more designs that are not fashioned after any rule and efficiency is the goal in many cases. Dragging a long keel around is not for the majority.

...
Yes I agree but there is something new in what regards that: Actually the broad transoms, beamy boats and fin torpedo keels are very penalized in handicap racing under any rule and you can see that many modern cruising boats have those characteristics.

They get them from Open boats where more importance is given to absolute performance instead of performance under a given set of rules.

Even between the racers for the first time you can see guys given more importance in going fast and having fun then to win races with slow boats with big handicaps.

When MAX yachts included the racing sailor opinions as a mean to got information to design its late 11ft he found out that what sailors wanted was the fastest boat they could get independently of being capable of winning races on handicap or not.

This is something new and has to do with the predominance of Open racing boats in the racing panorama in what concerns media attention and even sailorís attention.

Regards

Paulo
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  #174  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I donít get it. It seems to me that Halberg Rassy would have an advantage in marketing different boats (old designed boats) if those boats were really better.

But if you have any doubts and think there is a conspiracy theory of all boat builders (including bluewater brands) regarding selling worse boats than what they used to do 30 years ago, just look at what are designing the most talented XXI century Naval architects and I donít mean the boats that are commissioned by the big brands but the ones that they make out of pleasure just to make a stand in what they believe or one offs for very good sailors and guys that can discuss with them the ideal cruiser for the kind of sail they want to do (and that includes many bluewater boats).

Look at all those boats and tell me if you see any heavy full keeler.

Regards

Paulo
whooosh
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  #175  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

At the end of the day, does not matter if it is a fin or full keel, round, flat or V bottom. Does it have the ability to carry the stores etc that a person(s) is going to put in it, then not slow down tremendously, still go to weather, down wind, handle large waves/wind, etc

If it will not do the above in the terms/specs "YOU" have for said boat, then it is more than likely under specked, potentially over, but more than likely, under specked for the use that the end user has in mind!

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  #176  
Old 03-27-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

mitiempo: “isn’t that a fair comparison” to compare boats by their displacement. Yes, I agree it is fair. The Westsail 32 vs. the Beneteau 42; and the Alajuela 38 vs. the Bavaria 50.
Skygazer: “Marketing is aimed at “Most” People”. Few things in boating are more true. Thanks for the comments.
Benjmin: “This is great” . Yes it is, and long overdue. Your boat looks great too. Thanks for the pics.
Paulo: Thanks for the great video and your continued input. My wife and I have decided NOT to buy a Volvo 70 as our next cruising boat.
BryceGTX: The thumbnails you posted were very helpful and saves a lot of words. All of your input has been welcomed (by some).

Yes, a heavy, full keel cruiser will cost more to produce. Yes, most of the light weight modern designs can sail faster in smooth water when empty. To disregard the valuable benefits of the heavier displacement and/or the full keel is not a step forward toward a better long range voyaging sailboat. IN THE SMALLER SIZES, both attributes can enhance over-all performance. My experience is not as a naval architect, nor as a marketer. It is as a sailor who lives with their results.
The flatter the bottom the quicker the “snap”. If any of the critics say otherwise they are blowing smoke and indicating a lack of experience. The lighter the boat the more it will pound. If any of the critics say otherwise . . . . . In the smaller sizes, this cannot be taken lightly. The modern, light weight sailboat when heavily loaded will lose significant performance, usually falling below the performance of the boat that was designed heavier in the first place. If any of the critics say otherwise they are blowing smoke and indicating a lack of experience.
I repeat all of this for a reason. The newbies. There are many reasons why most boats are fin keeled and light weight. There are also justifiable reasons why heavier displacement and, perhaps, a full keel are very viable options.
As I read of the many theoretic advantages of the fin keel by so many critics of the full keel, ie the “Tip vortices drag”, the” reduced wetted surface”, the “lift”, etc, etc, I counter that much of the hype falls into the category of “statistically insignificant”. That is my opinion, as it applies to the smaller sizes of long distance voyaging sailboats. As I have of a history of “Deleted” posts, I must not say any more.
Thankyou

Blt2ski: Thanks for that input. I see you are a wise man.
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Last edited by Oregonian; 03-27-2012 at 11:50 PM.
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  #177  
Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
As I have of a history of ďDeletedĒ posts, I must not say any more.
I hope that this is a case of normal screw ups with site traffic. I think you add a valuable viewpoint, and I definitely appreciate it.

How interesting is a one sided discussion anyway?
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  #178  
Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
mitiempo: ....
Paulo: Thanks for the great video and your continued input. My wife and I have decided NOT to buy a Volvo 70 as our next cruising boat.
....
If you understood that I was purposing to someone a VOR 70 as cruising boat it is probably because my English is a lot worse than what I thought or you did not understood nothing that I have said.

Basically what I have said is that if you have the money to buy the better boats money can buy, go to one of the top NA that design the VOR 70, the Open 60 and the 40 class boats, and work with them with your criteria for a cruising boat. If you donít have all that money look at the boats they have designed recentely and are produced by the market builders: You have them for all kind of cruising, from coastal to bluewater, from deck saloons to fast performance cruisers, from centerboarders, twin keels, fin keels or foil keel with a torpedo.

In any case you would not end up with a heavy full keeler.

If You donít have the money for that, you can buy one of the boats designed by those guys 10 years ago. It will not represent the actual state of the art but it will not be very far away.

If you donít have money for that you can buy an old boat. If it is really old designed it will be a full keel boat but most of the cruising boats with 30 years, even bluewatet boats, are already not full keeled boats, but a kind of a compromise between a fin and a full keel.

Any boat is better than no boat and once you have one, well, thatís the one that matters to you and it will be certainly the one you love the most

Regards

Paulo
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  #179  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
If you understood that I was purposing to someone a VOR 70 as cruising boat it is probably because my English is a lot worse than what I thought or you did not understood nothing that I have said.

Basically what I have said is that if you have the money to buy the better boats money can buy, go to one of the top NA that design the VOR 70, the Open 60 and the 40 class boats, and work with them with your criteria for a cruising boat. If you don’t have all that money look at the boats they have designed recentely and are produced by the market builders: You have them for all kind of cruising, from coastal to bluewater, from deck saloons to fast performance cruisers, from centerboarders, twin keels, fin keels or foil keel with a torpedo.

In any case you would not end up with a heavy full keeler.

If You don’t have the money for that, you can buy one of the boats designed by those guys 10 years ago. It will not represent the actual state of the art but it will not be very far away.

If you don’t have money for that you can buy an old boat. If it is really old designed it will be a full keel boat but most of the cruising boats with 30 years, even bluewatet boats, are already not full keeled boats, but a kind of a compromise between a fin and a full keel.

Any boat is better than no boat and once you have one, well, that’s the one that matters to you and it will be certainly the one you love the most

Regards

Paulo
I do not presume to speak for Oregonian, but once again you seemingly unable to grasp what some of us have been saying.

Some of us do not want a flat bottomed, twitchy, "state of the art" boat.

What is "better"?

Are you telling me what I should like?
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  #180  
Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
I do not presume to speak for Oregonian, but once again you seemingly unable to grasp what some of us have been saying.

Some of us do not want a flat bottomed, twitchy, "state of the art" boat.

What is "better"?

Are you telling me what I should like?
Surely there is something with my English I have said:

"Basically what I have said is that if you have the money to buy the better boats money can buy, go to one of the top NA that design the VOR 70, the Open 60 and the 40 class boats, and work with them with your criteria for a cruising boat."

For instance go near Bruce Farr and tell him that you want a boat with a soft motion, an easy going boat upwind, a bluewater boat and let him decide how to manage those characteristic without a big loss of speed or interior space.

I am assuming he knows a lo more than you and has the knowledge and is able to do a state of the art boat accordingly with your criteria.

A state of the art boat means not a racer but the best available solution, with today's technology and hydrodynamics knowledge, for a boat with the characteristics you want.

What I am saying is that is not going to be a full keel boat just because he knows that he doesn't need a full keel boat to obtain what you want and a full keel will make the boat unnecessarily slow.

Of course I am assuming that one of your criteria for a cruising boat is not a purposely slow boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-28-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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