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  #181  
Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Surely there is something with my English I have said:

"Basically what I have said is that if you have the money to buy the better boats money can buy, go to one of the top NA that design the VOR 70, the Open 60 and the 40 class boats, and work with them with your criteria for a cruising boat."

For instance go near Bruce Farr and tell him that you want a boat with a soft motion, an easy going boat upwind, a bluewater boat and let him decide how to manage those characteristic without a big loss of speed or interior space.

I am assuming he knows a lo more than you and has the knowledge and is able to do a state of the art boat accordingly with your criteria.

A state of the art boat means not a racer but the best available solution, with today's technology and hydrodynamics knowledge, for a boat with the characteristics you want.

What I am saying is that is not going to be a full keel boat just because he knows that he doesn't need a full keel boat to obtain what you want and a full keel will make the boat unnecessarily slow.

Of course I am assuming that one of your criteria for a cruising boat is not a purposely slow boat.

Regards

Paulo
Those are a lot of assumptions.

I already have the boat with the characteristics that I want. For probably less than the cost of Bruce Farrs consulting fee. Not to mention the cost to build the boat.

His interpretation of what makes a good cruising boat may be different than mine.

Its not hard to understand.
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  #182  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Yeah but is the state of the art really any better than it was 30 years ago?....aside from weather input is the question...I think ....Perhaps..a big reason these racers and others go out in these lighter beamy boats since what... the early 80's... is mostly due to satellites stuck in the sky in the mid 70's that could finally show a storm and transmit data so that these lighter faster beamy boats can get to the weak corner of the storm...There..I said it...I think that it's the weather and other tech input more than anything since the 70's that gives "state of the art" race teams and their weather teams on dirt a decent chance to outrun bad weather that the race designers felt safe enuff to come up with these type boats and the commericial hunterbenelina designers followed...I think that's fine....no ones said it till now...but playing devil's advocate.......I think that that's their ace in the hole...their speed...but meanwhile much of the time...,they are pounding and difficult on race crews if raced...or plodding and weather-windowed if cruised and overburdened with gear...which may well cancel their speed vs. the weather edge...just some thoughts...bet that rumpled some feathers...thats one of my theories for awhile and I'm throwing it out there because I am not seeing any other advantage to new designs aside from materials and weather/nav tech and I've thought on it for awhile...the new boats are merely taking advantage of the state of the art of meteorology , not yacht design...though some progress has been made it's been more materials/tech than some new over-arching philosophy of beamy and light is better...Who other than the hardcore big-ballers would really go to sea in those type boats with say 1960's weather forecasting...truly brave mariners...with iron stomachs...Polynesians and others did it..but that was along time ago...
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Last edited by souljour2000; 03-28-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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  #183  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by souljour2000 View Post
Yeah but is the state of the art really any better than it was 30 years ago?..
Of course, like in cars, airplanes and everything else. New materials, new knowledge is continually integrated in boat, car, airplane or motorcycle design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Those are a lot of assumptions.

I already have the boat with the characteristics that I want. For probably less than the cost of Bruce Farrs consulting fee. Not to mention the cost to build the boat.

His interpretation of what makes a good cruising boat may be different than mine.

Its not hard to understand.
A Naval Architect, or an any Architect for that matter, does not design accordingly with his personal point of view.

Farr would not have made a cruising boat to you according to his personal view or criteria but according with your view.

The Criteria is yours he would just find the better materials and the better hull and keel design to accomplish what you want.

As he know a lot more than you he would be able to design a boat that you would find perfect but a boat that would incorporate all the hydrodynamics knowledge and advantages of modern materials, he would do you a state of the art boat in what concerns the satisfaction of your needs, including sea motion but would make you a much better and faster boat that any old boat, even if one of your design Criteria would be that the boat looked like a classic boat.

If he could not do that he would not be a good NA and Bruce Farr is one of the best.

Just to explain myself better regarding what Architects do, a little story:

Some years ago a rich German come to me, recommended by another client and asked me if I could do him a "Romantic house". I said sure and then passed some weeks understanding what was for him and his wife a "Romantic House". When I understood what was "Romantic" for them I designed a house that they both loved, a "Romantic house", but a modern house in what regards building materials, construction functionality and easy of living.

He thinks that house is a perfect house and he even think that If I could (it is a huge house) I would live in one like that. Of course, he could not be more wrong

Regards

Paulo
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  #184  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Of course, like in cars, airplanes and everything else. New materials, new knowledge is continually integrated in boat, car, airplane or motorcycle design.



A Naval Architect, or an any Architect for that matter, does not design accordingly with his personal point of view.

Farr would not have made a cruising boat to you according to his personal view or criteria but according with your view.

The Criteria is yours he would just find the better materials and the better hull and keel design to accomplish what you want.

As he know a lot more than you he would be able to design a boat that you would find perfect but a boat that would incorporate all the hydrodynamics knowledge and advantages of modern materials, he would do you a state of the art boat in what concerns the satisfaction of your needs, including sea motion but would make you a much better and faster boat that any old boat, even if one of your design Criteria would be that the boat looked like a classic boat.

If he could not do that he would not be a good NA and Bruce Farr is one of the best.

Just to explain myself better regarding what Architects do, a little story:

Some years ago a rich German come to me, recommended by another client and asked me if I could do him a "Romantic house". I said sure and then passed some weeks understanding what was for him and his wife a "Romantic House". When I understood what was "Romantic" for them I designed a house that they both loved, a "Romantic house", but a modern house in what regards building materials, construction functionality and easy of living.

He thinks that house is a perfect house and he even think that If I could (it is a huge house) I would live in one like that. Of course, he could not be more wrong

Regards

Paulo

You are right Paulo, a skilled NA should be able to design a small cruising boat with the characteristics that I'm looking for.

That begs the question, where are these boats? Has the public been duped into thinking that they need an "interesting boat"?
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  #185  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

This is clearly an unwinnable argument, and I think the two sides need to agree to disagree and move on.

Statistically I think the vast majority of coastal cruisers appreciate a more nimble, maneuverable design than your typical full keeler. But it's great that those who prefer that style still have boats around that will fulfill their needs. And for ocean crossings, while the relative merits are obviously still debatable the main shortcomings of the full keel are far less relevant.

Quote:
That begs the question, where are these boats?
The very fact that very few builders are still producing such boats, however, pretty much answers your question, GB. Duped or enlightened?? To each his/her own.
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  #186  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

As I attempted to say, maybe some agreed, one can get any style of boat designed, be it a fin or full keel to do what one wants. BUT, as pointed out, one needs to look at disp to disp. SO I looked up to known ocean goers that would be somewhat equal to my Jeanneau arcadia that is listed at 6200 lbs. A Dana 24 7200lbs and a Flicka at 5000-5500.

The SA/Disp of the flicka at sailboatdata.com was 12-1, with what I could tell was no ability to increase Upwind SA via a 155 or equal. The dana was a bit better at 15.x -1, potential to increase, but not easy. My Arcadia, base is 18-1, with a 155 I am at 25-1.

Bal disp, the flicka and mine are around 32%, the dana 40%. BUT, who is to say at my 5.5' draft that my 32% is worst or better or on par with the dana, probably better than the flicka. With out cranking some numbers......swag on my part.

Reality is, any of these with much more than about 2000 lbs of gear people etc is going to be hard on it for a longer trip! At least, if one hits the proverbial doldrums, my boat can have more power per lb/ton of wt than either of the others, along with a mast that is 40' off the water, vs low 30' range for the dana, and maybe 30' for the flicka. So if any higher than the waterline winds are there, I'm may still moving.

My WL is longer than either boat in length. Being as WL will help contribute some lessening of motion per say in some conditions, other worst, ALL boats have a wave length if one will that will be on par with another of equal lbs if that is what one is using to compare. Capsize ratios seem to go up higher the longer the boat vs shorter boats of equal disp etc.

With PHRF ratings of about 40 secs slower for the dana, and just over 2 min a mile for the flicka than my boat. A 1000 mile passage will take approx 11 hrs longer with the dana, and 33 hrs longer with the flicka. assuming I did the math correct. I would bet it could be longer yet! being as PHRF secs a mile difference do not always add up correct at the end of the day. Using 80% of hull speed to go 1000 miles, the flicka is 222 hrs, dana 204, arcadia 186. More than PHRF differences. Potentially up to 1 and 2 days more for those boats.

If one could hit some downwind work, with my being able to surf, and have over 900# of SA with a spin, the other two do not list, It could be upwards of 2 and 4 days quicker for my boat to do the 1000 miles. 80% speed is 4.5, 4.95 and 5.36 knots for these boats.

At the end of the day tho, we need a boat that will work for us as individuals. how we sail, where we sail etc.

Designers current and last boats that I know of. Farr used to sail a Laser 28 and F1020, both of his designs. Not sure what he sails now. Daniel Andrieu(sp) has a Jeanneau Sunfast 3200 for him and his family. Finot, has a similar style of boat to the SF3200, but a higher tech material for lack of better term for his personal and his design built by that company. Tony Castro has a 40'ish foot boat that is on par with an Alerion or Morris M series, but it has more of an open ocean interior, but older style with a very modern under body fin keel! the latter three sail there boats from the UK to France etc. Certainly some open water than can get interesting to say the least.

Bob Perry, while he does not sail one of his own boats, it is from what I can tell, on par with my boat, but a bit shorter, also a european built IIRC. His cruisers are not generally speaking full keels, more of a moderate fin, so they can be quick!

Most of us want something that is fun to sail, maneuverable, safe, has storage for our personal needs, and a design that works for where we sail! For some, maybe a full keel, other a bildge, some a centerboard ala Finot's boat, others a fin keel! some twin rudders, some single.......in the end, does the boat make your heart spin! as a good women, or man if that is your choice will. There is no right or wrong to keel type per say. Only what you think will work best for you. I'll take a fin, CB, moderate fin to a full keel in that order!

Marty
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  #187  
Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Most of us want something that is fun to sail, maneuverable, safe, has storage for our personal needs, and a design that works for where we sail! For some, maybe a full keel, other a bildge, some a centerboard ala Finot's boat, others a fin keel! some twin rudders, some single.......in the end, does the boat make your heart spin! as a good women, or man if that is your choice will. There is no right or wrong to keel type per say. Only what you think will work best for you. I'll take a fin, CB, moderate fin to a full keel in that order!

Marty
All the rest...IDK
but this sums it up for me, even if you did mispell bildge, (we're such a red headed step child) But hey,
I wanted a camper on the water and thats what I got...
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  #188  
Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

blt2ski, nice post, thank you!
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  #189  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Familycruisers View Post
Full? Fin?
What about Bilge!!!!!
I don't know if this should be another thread, but bilge keels look very interesting. Which ever way the boat heels, one (somewhat pathetic) keel is almost straight up and down, which to my mind means they can be as effective as a deeper keel running at an angle. And the other one, well, is vertical stability desirable or undesirable in a seaway?

Do they make them with aerodynamic keels, or just flat plates? There is one (British made) just down the road from me, looks very cool. I haven't examined it, but I'd love to. Could be a bugger to get off a sandbar.
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Re: Full or fin keel? Depends

I tend to agree with jackdale the full keel is more sea-kindly but doesn't point as well. If you are heading to Bahamas or other shallow waters, a full keel might be a better choice. Years ago, planning Bahamas/FLA cruising, we elected to go with a Tartan 33 (S&S designed classic plastic) with a Scheel keel. Fully loaded she carries a 4'9-10" draft. You don't find Scheel's on too many classic boats but they are solid and point a bit better, while offering a shallower draft. Not too sure why they weren't more popular.
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