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  #11  
Old 01-28-2012
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Those are the sort of keels I was talking about. Mark Ellis has a number of interesting designs with long keels like these combined with big spade rudders - and don't bother giving the arguments about spade rudders and cruising I have heard them before.
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  #12  
Old 01-28-2012
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Ron

Agreed

Full keel in reverse is no fun. Not just docking, but using a stern-tie.

I like a fin keel with a skeg rudder. Even then I have had rudder damage hitting a log off Powell River with that set up.

There is also the view that a full keel boat can be careened, while a keel cannot. I seen a photo of Bagheera, the Copeland's Bene 38 careened when they were doing rudder repairs. It probably depends on the boat.
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Old 01-29-2012
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Then there's the best of both worlds, the long keel hull of a slocum 43
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Old 01-29-2012
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Fast.

This is the underwater profile of the M39. I find that she backs up pretty well providing you have the cojones to give her a bit of throttle. It can be a tadge alarming in close quarters but she is quite controllable. Mind you having a bow thruster as backup has made me less of a wee timorous beastie than I might otherwise be.



Not, I must add as controllable as the fin and spade of Raven. She backed up like a car. Fast or slow, no worries.

Boat I had before Raven was full keel cutaway forefoot. Reverse ? Don't be silly.
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Old 01-29-2012
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btw ... in case anyone is thinking I was having a go at gaff rigged schooners, think again.

I seriously doubt we would go past this beauty ....



Bob Perry's Jakartan.

I would.
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Old 01-29-2012
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I can certainly recommend the keel design on one of these....

UNION POLARIS 36 sailboat on sailboatdata.com

Very stable.

Perhaps not the highest-pointing ship in the sea, but you can't have everything.
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Old 01-29-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Fast.

This is the underwater profile of the M39. I find that she backs up pretty well providing you have the cojones to give her a bit of throttle. It can be a tadge alarming in close quarters but she is quite controllable. Mind you having a bow thruster as backup has made me less of a wee timorous beastie than I might otherwise be.
Kukka has a relatively narrow chord keel, and the rudder is more spade than skeg, esp with the proximity to the prop skeg section, I'm not surprised she backs up alright.. Nice compromise.

Of course you're planning to sell that bow thruster (spelled C-H-E-A-T-E-R) to some truly needy W32 owner, right?
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Old 01-29-2012
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The problem with this kind of binary question (full vs fin) is that this is only one of many design details which contribute to a sailboat's overall sailing & cruising characteristics. The right answer will be as much dependent on the type of sailing you are planning (including crew considerations), as any single vessel characteristic. And no matter what, a poorly designed sailboat, no matter what the keel, will be a poor sailing vessel (although it might be a great live aboard).

I have owned both modified-fin (3/4 with skeg-hung rudder) and full keel cruising boats. I have also cruised fin keel, spade rudder cruisers. For my style of cruising I have currently settled on a full-keel traditional boat (Rafiki-37). The tracking ability makes it more forgiving, and I appreciate the ability to take a grounding with slightly greater comfort. But the negatives are significant: tight manoeuvring is very difficult and reversing is a crap shoot (I never know where I'm going to go).

Every boat is a compromise. The real trick is to understand what kind of sailor you are, and where/how you plan to sail. From there, you can start to make some rational decisions about keel and hull design, rig, size, material, equipment, aesthetics, and a hundred other factors.
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Old 01-29-2012
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A lot of added safety with a full keel and if your're cruising you won't be sailing up wind very often (aka BEATING); best part is you won't have to re-learn how to sail never having had a fin keel. And if you go with a double ender you'll be able to sleep at night during a blow. Downside may be a little speed in very light air and using more bottom paint.
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Old 01-29-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Ron

Full keel in reverse is no fun.
+1. We've got a full keel with a barn door rudder, and I'm here to tell you backing is ALWAYS an adventure. If there is absolutely no wind and no current, I can usually know how the beast will track in reverse. Mostly it's all about using the throttle intermittently to balance prop walk with having the rudder pretty hard to starboard (the rudder imparts very little turning effort when in reverse.)

However, when conditions are not totally benign the old gal loves to make my life interesting. Doing the mental gymnastics thinking about the opposing forces keeps me on my toes, but usually I'm left with just getting her out into a fairway with enough maneuvering space to spin her until I get pointed in the right direction.

If there's a considerable cross wind or current, I've got to weigh the possibility of becoming a "bumper boat" against my desire/need to get underway.
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