Full or fin keel? - Page 20 - SailNet Community
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post #191 of 847 Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Skygazer

Yes they do.
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post #192 of 847 Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Skygazer

Yes they do.
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WOW!!! Really nice looking boat. It LOOKS fast!

Next question, did they make any like that 30 years ago so I can afford one?
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post #193 of 847 Old 03-28-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Don't think so.

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post #194 of 847 Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

SKygazer,

Sorry, but unless something different has happended back then, most were not very fast back in the day. The newer ones by RM seem to be adding some of todays design elements into a setup that frankly, could be quick, etc. ALong with make for a boat that will cruise, race if need be, carry some weight, be fun to sail etc.

Still, not "my" style of boat.....but, if it is yours, frankly "GO FOR IT!" I'm not going to say a given boat is right or wrong. I do have a what I prefer if I bought a boat today, not sure if it would be the Jeanneau SF3200, or the Elan 310/350. Those are close to being affordable, and a design that would work for how "I" sail etc. The E350 would be more to my wifes liking, better yet one of the 40-45' DS style boats........yucko! but if the wife is not happy.....neither is I!LOLOL

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post #195 of 847 Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Paulo, when I watch the video it appears there is a time edit between the first two waves, so there is no way to tell how long the interval is. Also, when I look at the clouds it looks like the boat is rounding up, I don't see the sideways motion.

Am I correct in thinking you mean that the narrow deep keel allows sideways slipping down the wave face, rather than tripping on a long keel with more surface area? I can see in my mind that if the wave stalls the boat, the deep fin will no longer be providing lift, and might allow side slipping, avoiding being as caught in the wave motion. I just don't see it in the video (where the heck is the camera? It seems to remain vertical when the boat is horizontal. Gimbaled?) I don't think that rounding up is a desirable trait.

This thread has been making me think! Comparing a "flat" bottom modern shape to a "round/V bottom" shape, the flat will tend to orient to the face of the wave it is on, thus quicker to roll and come back.

But that means greater rotational acceleration. That also means greater acceleration of the passenger's bodies and "guts", which means it's more tiring and less pleasant. Further, greater acceleration means that the tall rigging is under greater stress. Greater work hardening and metal fatigue means the continuously greater acceleration increases the risk of rigging failure. This could be another reason older style boats were round/V shaped, they had natural wood spars and natural fiber rigging, both heavier and weaker than today.

Of course, this is a racing boat with a large crew. If cruising one wouldn't have lots of sail up, and would possibly be riding out the storm rather than trying to make the most headway possible, unless near a lee shore.
You are correct it was two waves separated by quite a bit of time... in the second wave footage on of the crewmen is missing. Paulo lost a little in the translation there.

The speed that boat exhibits is a beautiful thing but the trade off in comfort is brutal. (Stating the obvious) Also, if the boat had been inverted would it have righted itself?
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post #196 of 847 Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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You are correct it was two waves separated by quite a bit of time... in the second wave footage on of the crewmen is missing. Paulo lost a little in the translation there.
Well, we don't know the time that separated the two waves but for what they say it did not seem that much:

"Telefónica survive monster wave double hit:

...The amazing footage shot from the stern camera shows the entire on-deck crew -- including the helmsman -- twice knocked off their feet by the force of the up- to-10-metre waves."


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...Also, if the boat had been inverted would it have righted itself?
Contrary of practically all sailboats, full keelers or not, this boats (like the Open 60’s) can right itself up after been inverted in flat water by their own means. When inverted cruising sailboats need the help of waves to return from an inverted position. On flat water they will stay inverted.

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post #197 of 847 Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Also, IIRC, these V70 and open 60 boats to get certified, HAVE TO be inverted with rigs, put in the water, and right themselves with in "30 secs" to be able to race these races. Not sure if it is 30 secs, 45, 10 or ______! but there is a literal test to verify it can right itself with in the allotted time period. Or it is a no go.

I am sure, not only is the wt on the keel, type etc a factor, but deck design too would also come into play etc too.

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post #198 of 847 Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Also, IIRC, these V70 and open 60 boats to get certified, HAVE TO be inverted with rigs, put in the water, and right themselves with in "30 secs" to be able to race these races. Not sure if it is 30 secs, 45, 10 or ______! but there is a literal test to verify it can right itself with in the allotted time period. Or it is a no go.

I am sure, not only is the wt on the keel, type etc a factor, but deck design too would also come into play etc too.

Marty
I remember seeing a video of that. The boat was inverted without its rig (by using a crane) and then the crewman inside cranked the keel over to the one side by means of a hand hydraulic pump. Seems a little extreme
Would the mast help or hinder the roll-up?
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post #199 of 847 Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Well, we don't know the time that separated the two waves but for what they say it did not seem that much:

"Telefónica survive monster wave double hit:

...The amazing footage shot from the stern camera shows the entire on-deck crew -- including the helmsman -- twice knocked off their feet by the force of the up- to-10-metre waves."




Contrary of practically all sailboats, full keelers or not, this boats (like the Open 60’s) can right itself up after been inverted in flat water by their own means. When inverted cruising sailboats need the help of waves to return from an inverted position. On flat water they will stay inverted.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, it just means two waves hit the boat.. they could have been 2 hours apart. From the video it is obvious that they were not consecutive (the crewman on the stbd side is not present in the footage of the second wave.)

I also beg to differ on the cruising sailboat staying inverted in flat water - it depends on what cruising sailboat you are talking about. I'm pretty sure my Westsail 32 would roll back up in flat water without - assistance.
Some of the interesting cruising boats may not.
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post #200 of 847 Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Example of well blended design compromises- keel/centerboard design of the bermuda 40- ... but she don't back, strait. She spins as she backs. This is predicable and usually manageable except in strond tide and /or wind.
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