Full or fin keel? - Page 26 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree241Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #251  
Old 04-01-2012
skygazer's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: western Maine
Posts: 389
Thanks: 2
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 4
skygazer is on a distinguished road
Re: Full or fin keel?

Wow, souljour, I just went to sailboat data COLUMBIA 40 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com and checked out your boat, looks really good. I'd love to try out a keel/centerboard.

Drop that board to 9 ft. and seems you could go upwind nicely, plus track downwind with the keel.

Wolfenzee, your boat sounds great, I really like the lines. I've only really been (sailing) on wooden full keel boats, so I'm not sure how the fins handle. I've been on one, but they only motored
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #252  
Old 04-01-2012
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by souljour2000 View Post
What kind of boat Wolfenzee?...i just was lucky enuff to obtain a Columbia 40 for the right price...she needs lots of deck re-hab...but otherwise seemed a good bet as her rigging, spars and engine and sails are good from what I can tell...I know there will be a few surprises.... but she has a partial full keel and C/B.

Keel has 8,400 lbs lead...and C/B can drop her draft to 9 feet...4.5 feet when board is up. Charlie Morgan design..(1964) for Columbia and only 10.5 beam..plenty of room but sea-kindly lines...What I am getting at is hearing you talk about your old girl makes me itch to see how this boat handles...(wheel-steering) but also "emergency tiller" access plate at rudderpost head...
I can't wait to see how she tracks...after reading your post above...standing on her deck mid-river with gusts to 20 mph she seemed to almost not move..back to the tracking..,interested to see if I can "lash off" the helm easily like you spoke of... instead of flirting with the autopilot(if it works) or self-steering(doesn't have..maybe doesnt need?)
Anyways..I am in love and lust..can't wait to get her near me..she's lying 80 miles away...awaiting P/O to send fuel injectors he already purchased...(already has new injector pump he installed)...and it's a 1988 engine Universal diesel 24 hp(kubota) ..a little underpowered for a 19,000 lb boat but... it seems is just a marinized version of kubota tractor engine that should be easy to get stock parts for from local kubota tractor dealerexcept for some certain ones...
Atkin & Co. - Captain Cicero
Designed by William Atkin in 1936, the rig was modified boom was cut down from 18ft and raised, foot is now 15ft with a 37ft luff, permanent back stay was added (keeping the running back stays), cap shrouds and spreaders were added to the existing lower and intermediate shrouds, head stay was made detachable so a larger sail could be flown on the top stay ( a pad eye on deck was added so the head stay and top stay are parallel making it a cutter rig), head stay luff 29' top stay luff 40', mast is 3 piece laminated Sitka spruce 45' head off the water. The boat was designed to have an Atomic 4 but was re-powered with a Vetus M415 (33hp Mitsubishi based diesel) with a 16" three bladed prop...a 2200rpm the stern is squatted down and the boat moves at 7knots using less than 3/4 gph. 3200lbs of lead with an 1000lbs added in the form of a lead shoe. A boomkin was added at onetime for a self-steering vane but the it was discovered she will sail for just fine with a lashed tiller.
I have done a complete rebuild of the cabin, added two-speed winched to the two single speed that are there, new standing rigging and replaced the tired old SS chain plates with 954 bronze...beefier and will hold up better.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-01-2012 at 11:54 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #253  
Old 04-02-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
My full keel boat was commissioned to be a single handed ocean cruiser, fast sea worthy and easy to handle on all points of sail, granted there isn't enough room to swing a cat, but I don't have cats on board and I choose grace over space. A friend of mine in talking about his Catalina 30 (a fin keel boat) commented that even though it took a lot more work to sail at sea and wasn't as "sea kindly" his wife likes the extra room. ....
Has have been pointed out the cost of a boat and partly its seaworthiness have to do with weight. you should compare, as Marty as done, your boat with a boat of a similar weight, not length.

If you do that the story would be completely different in what regards interior space, seaworthiness, speed and even sea motion. Your boat has the advantage of mass for length (for the ones that prefer that kind of motion) but the big disadvantage of a much shorter LWL and that, as also have been pointed out, is very important in what concerns wave passage and the pitching movement of the boat.

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #254  
Old 04-02-2012
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Has have been pointed out the cost of a boat and partly its seaworthiness have to do with weight. you should compare, as Marty as done, your boat with a boat of a similar weight, not length.

If you do that the story would be completely different in what regards interior space, seaworthiness, speed and even sea motion. Your boat has the advantage of mass for length (for the ones that prefer that kind of motion) but the big disadvantage of a much shorter LWL and that, as also have been pointed out, is very important in what concerns wave passage and the pitching movement of the boat.

Regards

Paulo
This is a comparison between fin and full keel, the biggest difference between fin and full keel boats is that fin keel boats are much lighter, that is the point...to compare boats of the same size and different weights is a more accurate comparison...a typical weight fin of the same size as a typical weight full is about half.
chef2sail and skygazer like this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #255  
Old 04-02-2012
skygazer's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: western Maine
Posts: 389
Thanks: 2
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 4
skygazer is on a distinguished road
Re: Full or fin keel?

While cleaning my office today to avoid starting taxes, I happened to read the back cover of an old "Practical Sailor" magazine, Sept. 2011.

Because I've been thinking about fin keels and bulbs, which sound very good, I was immediately struck by the following quote:

Quote:
". . . I'm considering going to all-chain (rode). Also, because my boat is pretty light with a fin keel and bulb, the rode wraps around the bulb when the current is stronger than the wind, requiring diving to free the mess. This is manageable in July, not so fun in October."

Last edited by skygazer; 04-02-2012 at 10:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #256  
Old 04-03-2012
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,762
Thanks: 0
Thanked 25 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Re: Full or fin keel?

Either way to look at a comparison, but it wt vs wt, or length vs length, You will probably get a figure/act to work in you favor. I'm sure I could take my boat compare it to a full keel of the same 28' deck length, it would weight in some 3-4K lbs more, the comfort ratio would be higher due to the higher wt. Just as generally speaking, a longer boat of the same disp is usually better at a comfort ratio than a smaller boat.

The issue skygazer is talking about, occurs on bulb keels, but not other non bulb keels, be them fins, full, centerboard or bilge keeps. The issue is the bulb! On the otherhand, I doubt a bulb with all chain rode is going to have the same issues as a line rode anchor system either. Again, comparing two things that are not the same, in which, either way you look at it, you can get or not get the answer you are looking for.

Anchor sizing seems to be another hot topic, as is mast head vs fractional rigs, altho not as hot as the keel or anchor. Sail cloths seems to also kick up a small storm to a degree too.

At the end of the day, does the boat suit your needs, and how you sail. With options I have today, I would not want a full keel in the salish sea where I sail, as I would never get to sail many days of the year, unless it had a BIG rig on it. When it is under 5-7 knots, one needs a mid 20-1 SA/disp to make the thing move! Not to mention, the thing turns like an aircraft carrier, so for the how I sail, a fin is better than full. If I went offshore, I would still take a fin, altho maybe a bit longer, still a deeper one. Saw a Hunter with a shoal draft the other day in some uper teen winds. he was going nowhere fast, was not pointing as high as the T-bird or US30 that went flying by him! Along with him going sideways more! Then again, race crews are usually better setup than a cruiser. Even after the sails came down, he was not moving with the motor agains everything too fast.

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #257  
Old 04-03-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 535
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 8
GBurton is on a distinguished road
Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skygazer View Post
While cleaning my office today to avoid starting taxes, I happened to read the back cover of an old "Practical Sailor" magazine, Sept. 2011.

Because I've been thinking about fin keels and bulbs, which sound very good, I was immediately struck by the following quote:
This is a good example of why a more "high tech" design is not necessarily the best tool for the job so to speak.

What about how the boat is built? There is a lot to be said for the old overbuilt boats that will take all kinds of abuse.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against technology and scientific research resulting in a better boat, its just that in a lot of these cases what looks good on paper may not be the best in reality.

In Paulos video example of the open 70 being knocked down by the large wave and returning to the upright position rapidly, the trade off is a very fragile boat. In the first leg 3 of the 6? boats retired before the half way point and 2 of those never made it into the Atlantic....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #258  
Old 04-03-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
...

In Paulos video example of the open 70 being knocked down by the large wave and returning to the upright position rapidly, the trade off is a very fragile boat. In the first leg 3 of the 6? boats retired before the half way point and 2 of those never made it into the Atlantic....
You can only be kidding Put your boat sailing at 40K, let him fall repeatedly from the top of 25ft waves at 25k ...and you will probably will have a boat in small pieces. The efforts these boats are subjected are HUGE.

Sail one of these boats conservatively at cruising speed (and that means fast anyway) and it will be an incredibly strong boat.

Regards

Paulo
chef2sail and mitiempo like this.

Last edited by PCP; 04-03-2012 at 02:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #259  
Old 04-03-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 535
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 8
GBurton is on a distinguished road
Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You can only be kidding Put your boat sailing at 40K, let him fall repeatedly from the top of 25ft waves at 25k ...and you will probably will have a boat in small pieces. The efforts these boats are subjected are HUGE.

Sail one of these boats conservatively at cruising speed (and that means fast anyway) and it will be an incredibly strong boat.

Regards

Paulo
That is specious BS there Paulo. These boats are purpose built for ocean racing and the failure rate is unacceptable. On the current leg there are again 3 boats (or is it 4?) with major problems.

Cruising in one of these boats no matter what the speed would be an exercise in self flagellation. To even suggest it is laughable.

Not to mention the COST
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #260  
Old 04-03-2012
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Full or fin keel?

The anchor rode issue also occurs on fin keels that have a trailing edge that rakes back making it possible for the keel to hook on it.

Yes a full keel with heavy displacement will by it's nature have a better "comfort ratio" , but the whole point of this thread is to discuss the comparative points of fin and full keel. As far as I am concerned for an ocean cruiser the better motion and tracking abilities are extremely important attributes at sea.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-03-2012 at 02:57 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Tags
boat buying , newbee advice

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full Keel Vs. Fin or Modified Full Keel AjariBonten Sailboat Design and Construction 51 11-16-2013 03:52 AM
Full Keel vs. Wing Keel small boats Kyhillbilly General Discussion (sailing related) 4 07-26-2011 12:51 PM
4 ft draft, full keel, 30' and over? birdlives Boat Review and Purchase Forum 6 09-18-2010 12:00 AM
Older Full Keel boats JerryO39 General Discussion (sailing related) 30 06-09-2010 10:06 AM
Bristol 32'' full keel johnblsc Boat Review and Purchase Forum 2 12-13-2002 06:37 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:08 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.