Full or fin keel? - Page 27 - SailNet Community
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post #261 of 847 Old 04-03-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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That is specious BS there Paulo. These boats are purpose built for ocean racing and the failure rate is unacceptable. On the current leg there are again 3 boats (or is it 4?) with major problems.

Cruising in one of these boats no matter what the speed would be an exercise in self flagellation. To even suggest it is laughable.

Not to mention the COST
I agree that the failure rate has to be reduced and that the next VOR have to be even stronger but my comment had to do with what you said. This:

"In Paulos video example of the open 70 being knocked down by the large wave and returning to the upright position rapidly, the trade off is a very fragile boat."

Obviously the trade off for the stability is not a very fragile boat. A boat with that stability characteristics used has a fast cruising boat (and not raced at mad speeds) would be hugely strong.

Most of the motion discomfort on these boats has to do with speed. If you go only at 3 times the speed of your boat the comfort would be completely different.

There are many Ocean cruising boats designed along the lines of Open 60 boats (more beamy boats), some are even luxury boats and I don't see in what that is laughable. The hull lines of a VOR would in my opinion be less adequate for cruising because they provide more speed but a boat more difficult to control and needing a bigger crew...but I would not be surprised if some rich guy commissioned one and I bet the next Wally will have some characteristics taken from these boats, particularly the larger transom and the lateral chine.


Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-03-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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post #262 of 847 Old 04-03-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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I agree that the failure rate has to be reduced and that the next VOR have to be even stronger but my comment had to do with what you said. This:

"In Paulos video example of the open 70 being knocked down by the large wave and returning to the upright position rapidly, the trade off is a very fragile boat."

Obviously the trade off for the stability is not a very fragile boat. A boat with that stability characteristics used has a fast cruising boat (and not raced at mad speeds) would be hugely strong.

Regards

Paulo
But highly impractical. And uncomfortable. And expensive. And complex (The rigging, canting keel, hydraulics etc etc etc)

Not a good comparison
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post #263 of 847 Old 04-03-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I like this keel / rudder design:
Pelagic Expeditions Fleet Overview
http://www.pelagic.co.uk/fleet_pel.asp

Last edited by casey1999; 04-03-2012 at 04:08 PM.
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post #264 of 847 Old 04-03-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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That is not very different than Phillipe Poupon boat. That is what the French call a centerboarder and it is their most common choice in what regards a voyage boat (aluminum centerboarder). However Poupon boat centerboard is a lot more deep and I believe will give the boat a better tracking upwind.

http://www.fleuraustrale.fr/plan-du-bateau.html
Fleur Australe - Fleur Australe FR





That is also the type of boat Jimmy Cornnel recommends as a voyage boat (and thatís some recommendation).

I have already referred the very good dynamic stability of those boats that in bad weather pull the centerboard up (for not tripping on the keel) and can dissipate the energy of a breaking wave moving sideways or rotating on a vertical axis.

Regards

Paulo
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post #265 of 847 Old 04-03-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Nice footage, wish I could remeber my french from high school a little better...
Regards
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post #266 of 847 Old 04-03-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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That is also the type of boat Jimmy Cornnel recommends as a voyage boat (and thatís some recommendation).

I have already referred the very good dynamic stability of those boats that in bad weather pull the centerboard up (for not tripping on the keel) and can dissipate the energy of a breaking wave moving sideways or rotating on a vertical axis.

Regards

Paulo
Very, very nice Paulo, I truly enjoyed both videos. In the second one, I really liked the swimming Polar Bear and the Bald Eagles landing and hanging around like crows!

The ice formations, the desolate lands, the whale's tails, absolutely beautiful.
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post #267 of 847 Old 04-03-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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That's about it I know of guys that have crossed the Atlantic on Beach cats, or sailed the Horn...and they were not crazy but great sailors and were doing something that carried a limited risk. If I tried that it would be madness. I donít have the knowledge neither the skills to do that on a beach cat. However a cruising cat is not properly a beach cat. Here you have a Lagoon 440 sailing with winds in excess of 40K:



The guy is very good or a bit crazy because he carries too much sail for a relaxed sailing. With a bit less sail he would not be doing 18K but would go at 14K in a much safer way.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,
I sail a mono hull (but have a lot of experience on Prindle 16 beach cat). With a mono with too much sail you heel and maybe get knocked down. In a beach cat you capsize or pitch pole. But what happens with a big cruising cat? Here in HI there have been several tourist fatalities on comercial day sail cats when the standing rigging failed and the mast killed a passanger. The Coast Guard actually made more inspections required.

Another dismasting prompts new alert

How do you know on a cruising cat you have too much sail up? There is really no feed back (like you get on a mono hull) that the wind is loading up your rig.
Regards
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post #268 of 847 Old 04-03-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo

How about a fast boat that is less extreme - like a Cigale?
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post #269 of 847 Old 04-04-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Paulo

How about a fast boat that is less extreme - like a Cigale?
Less extreme than what?

The Cigale is an aluminum bluewater long distance voyage boat clearly designed taking advantage from the knowledge learned with Open solo boats. It was a precursor and its first "edition" is more than 25 years old. The fact that the boat is still very modern shows the huge success of that design regarding its use and sailor's satisfaction with the performance as a voyage boat and the sailors that have them are not properly marina sailors

The boat is designed to be forgiving, easily sailed solo, to be fast to be strong, to have a large autonomy and to provide a great interior for living aboard. Regarding the aluminium centerboarders it has the disadvantage of having a considerable draft and not be able to go to any place neither to look for shelter more nearer the shore but has the advantage of speed and sailing pleasure.

In the end it is like voyaging on a Porsche cayenne or in a Panamera. Take your pick

There is a member that has one and he could not be more satisfied. Of course, I would prefer the Panamera but I can understand that for most the Cayenne is a more adapted solution.




Last edited by PCP; 04-04-2012 at 07:02 AM.
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post #270 of 847 Old 04-04-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Paulo,
I sail a mono hull (but have a lot of experience on Prindle 16 beach cat). With a mono with too much sail you heel and maybe get knocked down. In a beach cat you capsize or pitch pole. But what happens with a big cruising cat? Here in HI there have been several tourist fatalities on comercial day sail cats when the standing rigging failed and the mast killed a passanger. The Coast Guard actually made more inspections required.
....
How do you know on a cruising cat you have too much sail up? There is really no feed back (like you get on a mono hull) that the wind is loading up your rig.
Regards
I am not a cat sailor but I know enough to know that a well design cruising cat can be a very seaworthy boat. Look at the huge number that have circumnavigated without any problem and you will see that is a very populat boat among long rage sailors and for a good reason.

Cats are very different from monohulls, its wider beam and almost no submersed keel gives them a much bigger static stability and a much better dynamic stability. A big cat is almost impossible to capsize by waves alone.

However as you say a cat can be capsized by wind (if it has the sails up) while a offshore monohull can't.

Because of those two characteristics you don't sail a cat in bad weather or high winds the same way you do in a monohull. Cruising cats have already a small rig (compared with its RM) but in bad weather you have to take in consideration that the boat will not come back from a capsize and that means that they should be sailed with more care and in a very conservative way.

Regarding not being able to notice that the boat is near the limit I am sure you can feel that. Look at the beginning of that movie and even without being there you will notice that the boat movements indicates that the boat is near the limit (that's why I have said that the guy or was a very experienced sailor in cats or was a bit crazy).

I have been following capsizing accidents with cats and they happen almost all if not all in a single condition: Incredible strong gusting wind with sailors that are too optimistic about the conditions. Saying that it is obvious that a cat demands a more experienced sailor than a monohull in what regards sailing in bad weather, but with a floating anchor and no sails, a cruising cat has much less changes to be capsized than a similar weight monohull.

I hope it helps

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-04-2012 at 03:42 PM.
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