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  #271  
Old 04-04-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo

The Cigale is less extreme than an open boat and has more amenities than a Pogo. I'd take one any day.
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  #272  
Old 04-04-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Paulo

The Cigale is less extreme than an open boat and has more amenities than a Pogo. I'd take one any day.
Regarding the cruising Pogo it is a much bigger boat. We will see when they finish the first Pogo 50. That one has a much better interior, doors and all

Regarding boat sailing characteristics they are not much different, they have the same kind of hull even if the Pogo has a bit more beam, but the weight is not much different considering that the Cigale 16 is 2 ft bigger.

The Pogo 50 weights 8900kg and the cigale 16 10750kg. The Pogo has more sail but not much: 150m2 for 141m2.

All in all you are right, the Pogo is faster and more close to an open boat...but not much

The Cigale has the advantage of the stronger aluminium hull but the Pogo has an huge advantage in what regards the cruising grounds and capacity to get shelter near the coast. Its draft with the keel up is only 1.5m. With the keel down the tracking upwind should be great with a 3.5m draft keel.

Saying that I would also prefer the Cigale, but that is just because I am getting old But hei, give me a Pogo 50 and I will be happy too.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-05-2012 at 07:20 AM.
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  #273  
Old 04-04-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

DO we really need keel's at all???
Just joking. But..
Have anyone seen this???

CHARTER BOAT LOSES KEEL: And No One Noticed
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  #274  
Old 04-04-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Yes, i saw that a while ago. It says a lot for form stability.

But no, keels aren't required.
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  #275  
Old 04-05-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Makes me think that those "dreaded bendytoys" can't be so bad at all...
Of curse I would not want to loose the keel. (If it was there to begin with)
But it is kind of reassuring to know, that others have done it without sinking their boat...
Maybe it was just luck, or some kind of production error..
But.....
Seriously...
Boats, that can handle this kind of abuse...
Should be able to cross some big oceans...


For those of you that are a little allergic to German, press mute...
(No.. I am not from Germany..)
But..
I am one of those willing to loose some comfort, to gain some speed..
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  #276  
Old 04-05-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Yesterday I finally got around to reading this post (guess I was wondering how you could talk about this subject for more than 200 posts, now I know )

Anyway here is my two cents worth. For five years I owned a full length keel Roberts 45 Classic. Below is the design.

Photobucket


Two year ago I sold he Roberts and brought a fin keeled UFO 34, as per below:


Photobucket


I have compared the two yachts extensively in a wide range of wind and sea conditions, including tacking angles, upwind / downwind / reaching performance, effect of waves, etc using the same navigation software / GPS setup.

As would be expected, the UFO 34 certainly had better upwind performance. However the truth is the UFO 34 has better sailing performance in ALL conditions, be it upwind, downwind reaching whatever. I've yet to find conditions where the UFO 34 does not perform better than the Roberts 45.

Some people will probably suggest that this is an unfair comparison comparing a heavy cruising ketch with a medium cruiser / racer. However you also need to remember that the Roberts 45 is more than 10ft longer than the UFO 34 and the larger yacht still loses in a sailing competition. (note 45ft excluded the bowsprit and davits, overall length was closer to 55ft.)

I would also agree with others that point out that the keel type is one of a number of factors that go into sailing ability. However most full length keel boats also tend to be heavy boats with similar charateristics to the Roberts.

Like others have said, there is a reason why Hallberg Rassy, Malo and other builders have progressed from full length to fin keels, as the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Ilenart
Faster and mitiempo like this.
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  #277  
Old 04-05-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenart View Post
Yesterday I finally got around to reading this post (guess I was wondering how you could talk about this subject for more than 200 posts, now I know )

Anyway here is my two cents worth. For five years I owned a full length keel Roberts 45 Classic. Below is the design.

Photobucket


Two year ago I sold he Roberts and brought a fin keeled UFO 34, as per below:


Photobucket


I have compared the two yachts extensively in a wide range of wind and sea conditions, including tacking angles, upwind / downwind / reaching performance, effect of waves, etc using the same navigation software / GPS setup.

As would be expected, the UFO 34 certainly had better upwind performance. However the truth is the UFO 34 has better sailing performance in ALL conditions, be it upwind, downwind reaching whatever. I've yet to find conditions where the UFO 34 does not perform better than the Roberts 45.

Some people will probably suggest that this is an unfair comparison comparing a heavy cruising ketch with a medium cruiser / racer. However you also need to remember that the Roberts 45 is more than 10ft longer than the UFO 34 and the larger yacht still loses in a sailing competition. (note 45ft excluded the bowsprit and davits, overall length was closer to 55ft.)

I would also agree with others that point out that the keel type is one of a number of factors that go into sailing ability. However most full length keel boats also tend to be heavy boats with similar charateristics to the Roberts.

Like others have said, there is a reason why Hallberg Rassy, Malo and other builders have progressed from full length to fin keels, as the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Ilenart
Why did you trade to a smaller boat? How do the cruising speeds compare under sail?
Regards
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  #278  
Old 04-05-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Casey,

Suggest you look at the RED highlighted part Ilenart's post near the bottom, he answers the Where the smaller lighter boat is better and worst than the larger heavier boat. OR, should I tell you that the larger heavier boat does NOT perform better in ANY condition vs the smaller one!

Marty


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenart View Post
Yesterday I finally got around to reading this post (guess I was wondering how you could talk about this subject for more than 200 posts, now I know )

Anyway here is my two cents worth. For five years I owned a full length keel Roberts 45 Classic. Below is the design.

Photobucket


Two year ago I sold he Roberts and brought a fin keeled UFO 34, as per below:


Photobucket


I have compared the two yachts extensively in a wide range of wind and sea conditions, including tacking angles, upwind / downwind / reaching performance, effect of waves, etc using the same navigation software / GPS setup.

As would be expected, the UFO 34 certainly had better upwind performance. However the truth is the UFO 34 has better sailing performance in ALL conditions, be it upwind, downwind reaching whatever. I've yet to find conditions where the UFO 34 does not perform better than the Roberts 45.

Some people will probably suggest that this is an unfair comparison comparing a heavy cruising ketch with a medium cruiser / racer. However you also need to remember that the Roberts 45 is more than 10ft longer than the UFO 34 and the larger yacht still loses in a sailing competition. (note 45ft excluded the bowsprit and davits, overall length was closer to 55ft.)

I would also agree with others that point out that the keel type is one of a number of factors that go into sailing ability. However most full length keel boats also tend to be heavy boats with similar charateristics to the Roberts.

Like others have said, there is a reason why Hallberg Rassy, Malo and other builders have progressed from full length to fin keels, as the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Ilenart
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  #279  
Old 04-05-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Casey,

Suggest you look at the RED highlighted part Ilenart's post near the bottom, he answers the Where the smaller lighter boat is better and worst than the larger heavier boat. OR, should I tell you that the larger heavier boat does NOT perform better in ANY condition vs the smaller one!

Marty
I was looking for the cruising speeds in Knots for each vessel.... Seeing one should have a higher hull speed the comparisons would be interesting...

In any case, glad to hear Ilenart likes his ufo 34 as my boat is nearly identical....
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Last edited by casey1999; 04-05-2012 at 05:30 PM.
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  #280  
Old 04-05-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Okay, got it!

The actual speed numbers would be interesting. BUT, probably also like my comparison to some smaller and about the same disp earlier, it may not be as drastic, but still better due to typically a lot more SA/disp ratio on typical fin keels vs full keels.

Marty
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