Full or fin keel?

[GBurton]

Originally Posted by PCP

You can only be jocking. Halberg Hassy, Oyster, Malo, Najad, Hinckley, Morris, all well know cruiser-racers trying to emulate racing boats!!!!

My God, that is really too much Wolf

As I have said, most of them were once full keelers, or medium keelers. They are now fin kellers to sail better not to race or to emulate racers. They are all bluewater cruisers and that's what they were built to do: Bluewater cruising, not to race or even cruiser-racing.

I think everybody can agree with that, I mean cruiser-racers?!!!!



Finally something I can agree with you. Yes in what regards Classic boats you are right.

However modern bluewater boats are fin keelers and that is a fact. Why the hell there is not a market for modern full keel bluewater boats if they are better than fin keel boats for bluewater work? Do you really believe that all the boat designers all the sailors that buy those bluewater boats are wrong and you are right? All of them?

Nothing wrong in liking to sail or own classic or traditional boats (I love both) but from there to pretending that the advantages of a better designed sailboat ended 75 years ago goes a big distance

Regards

Paulo

Actually, I think Wolfenzee is correct. You are proof of this Paulo, pushing boats that you call cruising boats but are nothing more than a skimming dish with sails.

Its a specious argument at best.

In the end the older boats such as my Westsail 32 make for comfortable, safe and affordable voyaging boats.
And don't forget, when you load the skimming dish up with supplies and tools for cruising the sailing characteristics will become less than desirable, sometimes making for a slow, uncomfortable cruise.

Paulo would never admit that of course.

[casey1999]

Originally Posted by Daily Alice

I am a bit shy to make my first post, though reading this and many other threads for some time, I would like your consideration. Now I am planning a voyage from Hawaii to Japan (my home), and I will purchase a boat in Hon. or NA West Coast, of 34' or under, due to budget.

I would try to stay away from buying a boat in Hawaii if you can (unless you find the perfect boat in perfect condition). Not too many good deals in Hawaii (not many boats for sale) and if your boat needs work, it is very expensive. Even doing the work yourself you are looking at $70 per day dry storage while you work (there are not any options as no marinas have a place to put your boat while you work on it).

[PCP]

Originally Posted by GBurton

Actually, I think Wolfenzee is correct. You are proof of this Paulo, pushing boats that you call cruising boats but are nothing more than a skimming dish with sails...In the end the older boats such as my Westsail 32 make for comfortable, safe and affordable voyaging boats.
And don't forget, when you load the skimming dish up with supplies and tools for cruising the sailing characteristics will become less than desirable, sometimes making for a slow, uncomfortable cruise.

I was talking about Halberg Hassy, Oyster, Malo, Najad, Hinckley, Morris (all fin sailing boats) I guess that you are calling them: "skimming dish with sails".

All uncomfortable boats not able to carry a decent load nor safe boats.

Do you really believe that?

Regards

Paulo

[GBurton]

Originally Posted by PCP

I was talking about Halberg Hassy, Oyster, Malo, Najad, Hinckley, Morris (all fin sailing boats) I guess that you are calling them: "skimming dish with sails".

All uncomfortable boats not able to carry a decent load nor safe boats.

Do you really believe that?

Regards

Paulo

I was referring to the other 3000 boats you have listed in days gone by...and I think we both know that.

[wolfenzee]

The marketing industry has a huge impact on the decisions made by people when it comes to gear as well as boats...if people were to make decisions based on thier own experience, the knowledge of others as well as what just plain suited them best, what people choose would be far different. But our ecomony is based on decisions made by the marketing industry...just look a what people buy across the board and where peoples material priorities lay.
My boat isn't the latest greatest fanciest high tech...as a matter of fact she has alot of stuff most people have never heard of they are so "obsolete"...most of the stuff on the boat was found on boats when she was lauched 40 years ago (and alot of that wasn't so different from when the boat was designed 75 years ago...just logical upgrades). On thing I picked up from my father was to think things through, I spent 30 years looking at other peoples good ideas and bad ideas before I found what suited me best..then I proceeded to customize her to make my boat just what I want.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

......just look a what people buy across the board and where peoples material priorities lay.

Yes, sailors buy the boats that they want to buy, no doubt about that and most of them buy the best their money can afford. Only some lucky ones buy just what they really want (I am not one of them).

But I don't agree that most sailors don't know what kind of boat they want neither that their choice is not adequate to their life style, sailing taste, cruising grounds and of course limited by the boundaries of their budget, at least for most.

Regards

Paulo

[blt2ski]

Reality is, as I have said before, the proper Keel of a given boat, on a proper scantling built boat for the purpose etc, is the way to go.

As also mentioned, we ALL hopefully buy a boat to use base on our needs. Yeah I could have bought a full keel boat for the same cost as my mid 80s Jeanneau. Reality is, I would NOT be happy here in pugetsound with a full keel boat! A fin keel for me is the way to go for how I sail, about 70% racing, 30% cruising or daysailing. With winds down in the less than 10knots a lot, works well. I would imagine if the full keelers I compared my boat too earlier, could get into the 24-1 SA disp ratio, they too "might" be fun in the lighter winds. If not, not as much so. You also get the takes 20 knots to get something moving from boats like the two I compared too, As they are in the 12 or 15-1 range with 6000 lbs of boat. Granted in 30 knots of wind, I have a double reef in, with a 110 , they are still sailing barely with a full main and 110....but compare teh SA/disp of the three, they are about the same!

Not sure the other two would also sail into their slip in less than 5 knots of wind with a main alon at 1-15 knots of boat speed. 40-45 knots of wind, 4-6' seas, no issue for my boat either. Can not remember how mine is vs a westsnail 32 I was on in the mid 70s in the sound with 40-50 knot winds. both do fine. The Westsnail was double reefed with a staysail up. Plowed along in the 4-6' waves too.

Reality is, one needs a boat for their own needs. Some like paulo and I, will take a fin. Others have spoken about prefering a fin even those that go across oceans etc. If I were to head across an ocean today, it would not be a full keel. MOre than likely a fin, maybe a moderate. Probably not. The new HR looks like a sweet sailing machine, as do the Hanse's etc.

With that, we should all agree to disagree!

Marty

[GBurton]

Originally Posted by blt2ski

Reality is, as I have said before, the proper Keel of a given boat, on a proper scantling built boat for the purpose etc, is the way to go.

As also mentioned, we ALL hopefully buy a boat to use base on our needs. Yeah I could have bought a full keel boat for the same cost as my mid 80s Jeanneau. Reality is, I would NOT be happy here in pugetsound with a full keel boat! A fin keel for me is the way to go for how I sail, about 70% racing, 30% cruising or daysailing. With winds down in the less than 10knots a lot, works well. I would imagine if the full keelers I compared my boat too earlier, could get into the 24-1 SA disp ratio, they too "might" be fun in the lighter winds. If not, not as much so. You also get the takes 20 knots to get something moving from boats like the two I compared too, As they are in the 12 or 15-1 range with 6000 lbs of boat. Granted in 30 knots of wind, I have a double reef in, with a 110 , they are still sailing barely with a full main and 110....but compare teh SA/disp of the three, they are about the same!

Not sure the other two would also sail into their slip in less than 5 knots of wind with a main alon at 1-15 knots of boat speed. 40-45 knots of wind, 4-6' seas, no issue for my boat either. Can not remember how mine is vs a westsnail 32 I was on in the mid 70s in the sound with 40-50 knot winds. both do fine. The Westsnail was double reefed with a staysail up. Plowed along in the 4-6' waves too.

Reality is, one needs a boat for their own needs. Some like paulo and I, will take a fin. Others have spoken about prefering a fin even those that go across oceans etc. If I were to head across an ocean today, it would not be a full keel. MOre than likely a fin, maybe a moderate. Probably not. The new HR looks like a sweet sailing machine, as do the Hanse's etc.

With that, we should all agree to disagree!

Marty

Yes, lets agree to disagree... without calling each others boats derogatory names. Some cannot manage to do this unfortunately.

[casey1999]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

The marketing industry has a huge impact on the decisions made by people when it comes to gear as well as boats...if people were to make decisions based on thier own experience, the knowledge of others as well as what just plain suited them best, what people choose would be far different. But our ecomony is based on decisions made by the marketing industry...just look a what people buy across the board and where peoples material priorities lay.
My boat isn't the latest greatest fanciest high tech...as a matter of fact she has alot of stuff most people have never heard of they are so "obsolete"...most of the stuff on the boat was found on boats when she was lauched 40 years ago (and alot of that wasn't so different from when the boat was designed 75 years ago...just logical upgrades). On thing I picked up from my father was to think things through, I spent 30 years looking at other peoples good ideas and bad ideas before I found what suited me best..then I proceeded to customize her to make my boat just what I want.

Wolfenzee,
You have some good points. Do you have some pics of your boat- it sounds interesting.
Regards

[casey1999]

Originally Posted by GBurton

Yes, lets agree to disagree... without calling each others boats derogatory names. Some cannot manage to do this unfortunately.

Yes, I think we should all agree any boat floating in the middle of the ocean is a good boat, no matter what the keel...
Regards