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  #321  
Old 04-10-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Wolfenzee,
You have some good points. Do you have some pics of your boat- it sounds interesting.
Regards
Atkin & Co. - Captain Cicero

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  #322  
Old 04-10-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Pretty similar to the Cape George boats. http://www.capegeorgecutters.com/
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Living aboard in Victoria Harbour

Last edited by mitiempo; 04-10-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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  #323  
Old 04-10-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
It looks like the rig has an inner forestay with backstays, do you have this? If so, how are the backstays tensioned- looks like they deflect the backstay to apply more tension?
Thanks
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  #324  
Old 04-10-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I'm really enjoying the discussion here and I was wondering if someone with the requisit knowledge can speak to the S&S designed Yankee Dolphin and the Dolphin S&S designed Dolphin with fin keel for the Austrailian market. Keels aside the vessels are identical, blue water capable and trailerable.

It is my understanding based on the wonderful Dolphin websight that both are exceptional cruisers but it's hard to say which is the better perfoming vessel. I would be inclined to think that the Aussie version is but then again the US version was campaigned successfully for many years in the MORC which may explain the benefits of the centerboard in the full keel design.
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  #325  
Old 04-10-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
It looks like the rig has an inner forestay with backstays, do you have this? If so, how are the backstays tensioned- looks like they deflect the backstay to apply more tension?
Thanks
The rig originally had no fixed back stay, just running backstays (18' foot w/ 38' luff...now 15' foot with 37' luff) and no cap shrouds or spreaders, just lower and intermediate shrouds. A self-tending working jib flew on the head stay with a jib top-sail on the topstay...fixed back stay, cap shrouds w /spreaders were added and head stay was made detachable to be able to fly a larger jib on the top-stay...I went one step further and put a pad-eye between the windlass and mooring bit so the head stay could be attached parrelell to the top stay...making it a cutter rig ( distance from stem to mast is 47% of the length of the boat so this was possible).
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  #326  
Old 04-10-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windswept too View Post
I'm really enjoying the discussion here and I was wondering if someone with the requisit knowledge can speak to the S&S designed Yankee Dolphin and the Dolphin S&S designed Dolphin with fin keel for the Austrailian market. Keels aside the vessels are identical, blue water capable and trailerable.

It is my understanding based on the wonderful Dolphin websight that both are exceptional cruisers but it's hard to say which is the better perfoming vessel. I would be inclined to think that the Aussie version is but then again the US version was campaigned successfully for many years in the MORC which may explain the benefits of the centerboard in the full keel design.
I had never heard of the Dolphin until you bring it up. Interesting boat. I have the S&S 34 (looks just like the Dolphin except longer). It is interesting that S&S designed the S&S 34 that was also marketed as a Tartan 34, but the boats are totally different (interesting the Tartan 34 also had a centerboard option).
Regards
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  #327  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
It is really incredible that someone can believe that from 1800 to today nothing as been learned in what regards sailing boats , stability and particularly dynamic stability.

Paulo
LOL.. you have to appreciate that most of the mathematics defining fluid dynamics, inertia, moments, static stability and dynamic stability was developed prior to 1900..

What has changed in the last 30 years is the application of microcomputers to perform the same calculations yacht designers performed by hand over 100 years ago.

So yes, there is no doubt in my mind they knew what they were doing back then.

Here is a picture that shows a 1880 design boat. After this picture was recorded, the text says "Mr Bentall then reduced the thickness of the keel, and placed an equivalent weight on it, as a bulb."

This boat has everthing you think is modern:
1) Chopped off bow,
2) Fin keel
3) Bulb
4) Light weight: 50 ft at 10 tons.
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Last edited by BryceGTX; 04-10-2012 at 10:04 PM.
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  #328  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
One of the most trusted bluewater boats are the Halberg-Rassy. Back in 1982 they did not use a full keel anymore and their 42ft had 3.78m beam.

Today its new boat, the smaller 415 has 4.11m of beam and use a modern bulbed fin keel.

And this is not an isolated case but the norm in what refers to modern bluewater cruising boats. Sure, you can find narrower boats still made today but almost in all cases are old designs that are still produced today and that don't reflect the state of the Art neither the actual knowledge in hydrodynamics and boat design.

Happily there are very few like you, I mean that believe that know more than the best boat designers on the market, otherwise bluewater brands like Najad, Malo, HR, Moody or Oyster would still be making the same type of boats they have made 30 or 40 years ago

Regards

Paulo
You are posting as if everything is better with the new design. So what caused Halberg-Rassy to change their design? And in what ways is the new design better? You have not addressed either of these issues.

No doubt the earlier design is better in rough water. However, most sailors, myself included want a faster boat at the expense of rough water capability. So clearly, the benefit of the new design is it is faster and has more room.

There is a tradeoff between comfort and speed. If you want the ultimate comfort in rough water, buy an Island Packet. At the opposite end of the spectrum are the lightweight cruisers Beneteau and Jenneau. The only thing more rough is a racing boat.

So you are agreeing with me I take it.

Last edited by BryceGTX; 04-10-2012 at 11:37 PM.
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  #329  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
As far as design changes over many decades, I think there are many more boats designed today that are designed to sail well in different conditions without being tweaked and distorted to meet a racing rule. There were certainly many distortions during the IOR rule years but remember many popular long keel cruisers were designed to a rule as well - a better rule but a rule that defined design type all the same. Most of the long keel designs that are popular now for offshore use were designed to race under the CCA rule - Albergs being a good example. Many of them were not intended by their designers to be sailed offshore either.
This is so very true.. it has been going on for more like 200 years though.

It is quite interesting to read the history of sailboat design to see the huge impact racing rules had on boat design.
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  #330  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by gburton View Post
paulo, did you ever consider that marketing might have something to do with the new designs?
Many people like you believe everything the manufacturers tell you that you should believe.
bingo..
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