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  #331  
Old 04-10-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
That is specious BS there Paulo. These boats are purpose built for ocean racing and the failure rate is unacceptable. On the current leg there are again 3 boats (or is it 4?) with major problems.

Cruising in one of these boats no matter what the speed would be an exercise in self flagellation. To even suggest it is laughable.

Not to mention the COST
Very true.. racing boats are not rough water boats.. end of story.. I can't imagine anyone thinking so.
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  #332  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Yes a full keel with heavy displacement will by it's nature have a better "comfort ratio" , but the whole point of this thread is to discuss the comparative points of fin and full keel. As far as I am concerned for an ocean cruiser the better motion and tracking abilities are extremely important attributes at sea.
Very true, yes.. thank you..
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  #333  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Obviously the trade off for the stability is not a very fragile boat. A boat with that stability characteristics used has a fast cruising boat (and not raced at mad speeds) would be hugely strong.

Most of the motion discomfort on these boats has to do with speed. If you go only at 3 times the speed of your boat the comfort would be completely different.

Paulo
Absolutely not.. hull design has everything to do with rough water capability..

AS a mater of fact, the racing boat is much better off at a higher speed in rough water to take advantage of its hull... Same as a power boat..
Bryce
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  #334  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
I am a bit shy to make my first post, though reading this and many other threads for some time, I would like your consideration. Now I am planning a voyage from Hawaii to Japan (my home), and I will purchase a boat in Hon. or NA West Coast, of 34' or under, due to budget.

My question concerns heavy weather. It has been mentioned that fin keels do not heave to. Comments? Also mentioned was that this could be ameliorated with a drogue (like Jordan series)? For the solo or short-handed skipper, in a smaller boat, would the ability of the boat to heave to be a) crucial, b) important, or c) solved by other means?

Of course I would love some recommendations of a used boat suitable to the task for < $25K prior to outfitting. There are not so many choices, right? But would you advise me to ignore any/all fin keels in whatever combination? There is a real appeal in making a speedy passage -- in fact I am wanting to deliver the boat (to myself) in Japan, where it will enjoy its future life, with coastal and offshore work. I am not a circumnavigator, or live-aboard person.

As for sailing experience, offshore experience is limited. I crew on a 37' Jeanneau Sun Odyssey sailing in the Japan Sea, in Southern Kyushu. I do like the idea of weathering battened down in my cabin, reading a book, if it comes to that (or just hanging on).

Last, just to mention, some sort of fin+skeg rudder combination appeals to me (particularly for later coastal use), but I would not want to be foolish. Would you? If you can't heave to with a smaller fin keeled boat, can it be recommended for my (or trans-Pacific offshore) use?
I think in general, the full keel is a much better boat for comfort in rough water. Basically, the more mass righting moment versus hull righting you have the more comfortable the boat. The full keel boat invariably has more keel mass. And has a hull with less hull righting moment. For me, the key number is the ratio of mass righting moment to hull righting moment. For lightweight cruisers and racers, this number is nearly zero. For heavy keel cruisers like the Island Packet, this number is closer to one.

For me, my boat is closer to probably about 0.3 or 0.4. It is a relatively wide beam for speed with a huge keel mass for a significant bit of mass righting moment. It is a trade off. It is not a lightweight cruiser, but it is not a heavy weight like an IP.

It is not so much that you can't take a lightweight crusier in rough water.. because it has been done. However, you need a different strategy in rough water than a full keel boat. Where a full keel boat will be more stable, remain more vertical, the lightweight cruiser will follow the waves on beam. So the way I see it, a better strategy is to keep going or be on a drouge in really rough water.
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 04-10-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
The main purpose of the fin keeled cruising boat, sometimes called a "racer/cruiser" is to emulate the high performance of the racing boats. As with everything in boats there a comprimises...as you approach the performance of a racer, more work is nessesary to handle the boat and the more uncomfortable the boat becomes in nasty weather. The "classic bluewater boat" is a heavy displacement full keel, they are easy to handle, comfortable in nasty weather, though are not super high performance. As with the fin as you approach the extremes of the design both the advantages as well as the disadvantages increase.
Very well put..
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Re: Full or fin keel?

This is an interesting discussion, but why in the last few pages has the Island Packet become a benchmark for heavy displacement? There are a great many heavy boats I admire that sail well, but Island Packet? They are certainly heavy but have also bowed to the "cram in a lot of accommodation" theory.
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  #337  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

casey1999, thanks for your information. Yes it would be a matter of good luck, really (I do have a place to stay in Honolulu, which matters). I am considering CA also.

On the full/fin question, I wonder if Paul Lutus (at the point, year two in his circumnavigation, 1988-90, likely deemed capable) voyaging in a 31' PS Mariah is correct in his observations, such as:

(Midway from Hilo to the Marquesas, March 29, Day 7, 12.d N/149.d W): "It just occurred to me that this passage would be unbearable in anything but a full-keel heavy boat like this one. It's bad enough listening to the bashing the bow is taking, and having one rail in the water about a quarter of the time. I can hardly imagine what it would feel like in a fast, lightweight boat with a fin keel. No wonder cruising sailors discourage use of this route" (p. 43)

(Tahiti to Darwin, Day 5, June 23): "The crossing has been very enjoyable so far. The wind has been favorable, speeds high, and I get to talk to my friends every day. We are comparing positions as we go. "Take Two" is a modern lightweight German-built racing boat with a longer waterline than mine, but they haven't been able to catch up -- mostly because their boat becomes too uncomfortable during high speeds and rough conditions. So to avoid seasickness they reduce their speed" (p. 69)

Could someone suggest a fin keel boat of the same approximate length (31'), which would not suffer as Lutus suggests in the conditions he reports? I realize the descriptions are not that specific, some imagination or speculation is required. Does Lutus raise some practical and relevant matters? His observations echo some of those in recent posts, above.


PS His book, "Confessions of a Long-Distance sailor" is available for free here. Worthwhile, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
I would try to stay away from buying a boat in Hawaii if you can (unless you find the perfect boat in perfect condition). Not too many good deals in Hawaii (not many boats for sale) ... you are looking at $70 per day dry storage while you work ...

Last edited by Daily Alice; 04-11-2012 at 03:58 AM.
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  #338  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryceGTX View Post
... Basically, the more mass righting moment versus hull righting you have the more comfortable the boat. ... For me, the key number is the ratio of mass righting moment to hull righting moment. For lightweight cruisers and racers, this number is nearly zero. For heavy keel cruisers like the Island Packet, this number is closer to one.
....
Bryce
What do you mean by this: For lightweight cruisers and racers, this number is nearly zero. Are you saying that a racer has near 0 of what you call mass righting moment, as opposed to hull righting moment? Can you explain that?

Regards

Paulo
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  #339  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
casey1999, thanks for your information. Yes it would be a matter of good luck, really (I do have a place to stay in Honolulu, which matters). I am considering CA also.

On the full/fin question, I wonder if Paul Lutus (at the point, year two in his circumnavigation, 1988-90, likely deemed capable) voyaging in a 31' PS Mariah is correct in his observations, such as:

(Midway from Hilo to the Marquesas, March 29, Day 7, 12.d N/149.d W): "It just occurred to me that this passage would be unbearable in anything but a full-keel heavy boat like this one. It's bad enough listening to the bashing the bow is taking, and having one rail in the water about a quarter of the time. I can hardly imagine what it would feel like in a fast, lightweight boat with a fin keel. No wonder cruising sailors discourage use of this route" (p. 43)

(Tahiti to Darwin, Day 5, June 23): "The crossing has been very enjoyable so far. The wind has been favorable, speeds high, and I get to talk to my friends every day. We are comparing positions as we go. "Take Two" is a modern lightweight German-built racing boat with a longer waterline than mine, but they haven't been able to catch up -- mostly because their boat becomes too uncomfortable during high speeds and rough conditions. So to avoid seasickness they reduce their speed" (p. 69)

Could someone suggest a fin keel boat of the same approximate length (31'), which would not suffer as Lutus suggests in the conditions he reports? I realize the descriptions are not that specific, some imagination or speculation is required. Does Lutus raise some practical and relevant matters? His observations echo some of those in recent posts, above.


PS His book, "Confessions of a Long-Distance sailor" is available for free here. Worthwhile, IMHO.
You seem to have learned a lot for someone that says it is very inexperienced and seems also to know what kind of boat you prefer. If you are not a troll and are really inexperienced go out and sail in as many boats as you can and you will find out what is the type that fits you.

The voyage that you say you want to do is not for an inexperienced sailor. Get some really experience first.

Regarding the best type of boat you have to have a budget first. You keep talking about a 31ft. Generally a bigger boat is more seaworthy and also more comfortable, I mean if your budget is not too tight maybe you can avoid some old type of sailing boat that is seaworthy but slow.

Regarding cruising and speed a good way to have an Idea is to go to the ARC page and look through the years for the different type of boats and for their passage times. Full keel heavy boats are always a lot slower than more modern boats and normally there are a relation between the age of the boat and speed (for the same type of boats).

You can also see also that almost anybody is using full keel boats for cruising offshore and unless you consider that they are all inexperienced sailors or masochists you should consider that overwhelming piece of information regarding the type of boat more suited for cruising.

Enjoy the search :
(don't consider corrected time but real time)

http://www.worldcruising.com/content...%20v120112.pdf

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-11-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Daily Alice

Yes, a full keel heavy boat will be more comfortable than a light flat bottom fin keel boat. But not all fin keel boats are flat bottom, there are many moderate displacement fin keel boats, with the rudders usually on skeg and far aft where they are more effective than angled down farther forward at the end of the keel.
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