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  #341  
Old 04-11-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
casey1999, thanks for your information. Yes it would be a matter of good luck, really (I do have a place to stay in Honolulu, which matters). I am considering CA also.

On the full/fin question, I wonder if Paul Lutus (at the point, year two in his circumnavigation, 1988-90, likely deemed capable) voyaging in a 31' PS Mariah is correct in his observations, such as:

(Midway from Hilo to the Marquesas, March 29, Day 7, 12.d N/149.d W): "It just occurred to me that this passage would be unbearable in anything but a full-keel heavy boat like this one. It's bad enough listening to the bashing the bow is taking, and having one rail in the water about a quarter of the time. I can hardly imagine what it would feel like in a fast, lightweight boat with a fin keel. No wonder cruising sailors discourage use of this route" (p. 43)

(Tahiti to Darwin, Day 5, June 23): "The crossing has been very enjoyable so far. The wind has been favorable, speeds high, and I get to talk to my friends every day. We are comparing positions as we go. "Take Two" is a modern lightweight German-built racing boat with a longer waterline than mine, but they haven't been able to catch up -- mostly because their boat becomes too uncomfortable during high speeds and rough conditions. So to avoid seasickness they reduce their speed" (p. 69)

Could someone suggest a fin keel boat of the same approximate length (31'), which would not suffer as Lutus suggests in the conditions he reports? I realize the descriptions are not that specific, some imagination or speculation is required. Does Lutus raise some practical and relevant matters? His observations echo some of those in recent posts, above.


PS His book, "Confessions of a Long-Distance sailor" is available for free here. Worthwhile, IMHO.
This is exactly what some of us have been trying to say. Thanks for the link and try to cut Paulo some slack, he has drunk the kool-aide that the marketers have presented. Maybe the whole barrel......
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  #342  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I would also think how close the boat can sail to windward should be a consideration for a good cruising boat. What if you are on a lee shore and your engine is dead?
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
I would also think how close the boat can sail to windward should be a consideration for a good cruising boat. What if you are on a lee shore and your engine is dead?
This is the scenario that is always presented by people that are not knowledgeable about full keel boats. I would like to say that it is a completely unfounded argument as full keel boats do sail to weather. Granted, a few more degrees off the wind than a racer/fin keel boat. I think this is another specious argument created to detract from the virtues of the full keel/modified full keel cruiser.
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  #344  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
This is the scenario that is always presented by people that are not knowledgeable about full keel boats. I would like to say that it is a completely unfounded argument as full keel boats do sail to weather. Granted, a few more degrees off the wind than a racer/fin keel boat. I think this is another specious argument created to detract from the virtues of the full keel/modified full keel cruiser.
I think you have a good point. An interesting reference:

What's The Ideal Sailing Rig?

I have had the chance to sail on some large wood clippers and square riggers and there is somthing about the solid feel and motion of those ships that would make a long ocean passage very comfortable. I think if funds were unlimited that would be the way to go.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
This is exactly what some of us have been trying to say. Thanks for the link and try to cut Paulo some slack, he has drunk the kool-aide that the marketers have presented. Maybe the whole barrel......
As I have said, sailors buy the boats they want and need and the market provides them and not the other way around. It is like that for cars, houses and a bit in what regards all products.

If the market does not provide full keel boats is because there are no significant number of sailors wanting them. It is as simple as that.

If there was some sailors wanting heavy full keel boats you can be sure there would be someone making, selling them and having a profit.

This is all so obvious that it is difficult to understand why do you believe in a market plot not to sell full keelers. Do you think that all the best boat designers are also part of that plot? None of then are designing full keelers for any kind of sailing, including bluewater sailing!!!

Well, I guess that the conspiracy theories are fashionable now, why not one more?

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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As I have said, sailors buy the boats they want and need and the market provides them and not the other way around. It is like that for cars, houses and a bit in what regards all products.

If the market does not provide full keel boats is because there are no significant number of sailors wanting them. It is as simple as that.

If there was some sailors wanting heavy full keel boats you can be sure there would be someone making, selling them and having a profit.

This is all so obvious that it is difficult to understand why do you believe in a market plot not to sell full keelers. Do you think that all the best boat designers are also part of that plot? None of then are designing full keelers for any kind of sailing, including bluewater sailing!!!

Well, I guess that the conspiracy theories are fashionable now, why not one more?

Regards

Paulo
Part of it may be pure economics. For a cruising sailor a full keel may performance wise be best. But from a cost perspective maybe not. To build such a boat it takes a lot more materials (and cost). Maintenace also becomes higher due to heavier weight and more surface area. The boats rig will probably be heavier (more cost) and require more sail area (more cost). So in order to sell more boats to more people need to lower the cost (mass market) and the way to do that is fin keel. Not to say the fin keel does not go faster and points better, but maybe it is not really the best overall design. But in terms of economics, maybe it is the best design. Now maybe you can purchase a good used full keel and then you got a good deal- if you are cruising.

For me with a full keel, I would have a hard time as I do a lot of single handing. I would have a harder time docking a heavier boat and dealing with one that takes more skill to manuver in tight places under both sail and power. But if I were doing some extended ocean passages, maybe full keel would be way to go.

Regards
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
As I have said, sailors buy the boats they want and need and the market provides them and not the other way around. It is like that for cars, houses and a bit in what regards all products.
Regards

Paulo
At least here in the US, people buy a lot of things we don't need, but the advertisers tell us we do. Here we have a lot of big sport utility vehicles that are daily drivers. We live in McMansions and we buy a lot of things that within a year are broken and end up in a landfill. But the sellers are telling us we need these things.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Part of it may be pure economics. For a cruising sailor a full keel may performance wise be best. But from a cost perspective maybe not. To build such a boat it takes a lot more materials (and cost). Maintenace also becomes higher due to heavier weight and more surface area. The boats rig will probably be heavier (more cost) and require more sail area (more cost). So in order to sell more boats to more people need to lower the cost (mass market) and the way to do that is fin keel. Not to say the fin keel does not go faster and points better, but maybe it is not really the best overall design. But in terms of economics, maybe it is the best design. Now maybe you can purchase a good used full keel and then you got a good deal- if you are cruising.

For me with a full keel, I would have a hard time as I do a lot of single handing. I would have a harder time docking a heavier boat and dealing with one that takes more skill to manuver in tight places under both sail and power. But if I were doing some extended ocean passages, maybe full keel would be way to go.

Regards
I think you have hit the nail on the head with your first paragraph.

As regards to single handing a heavy full keeled boat, this is what I do nearly all the time as I like to sail by myself. I'm talking day sailing.

I learnt how to sail on hobie cats and J24's . I decided to buy a Westsail after sailing a J24 quite a bit on San Francisco bay. I cant imagine how it would be on an ocean passage

Docking takes a bit of forethought, but I actually enjoy the challenge.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Good link:
Keel Types – Full, Deep Fin, Bulb, Wing, Centerboard, Canting - Waves « Jordan Yacht Brokerage
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Part of it may be pure economics. For a cruising sailor a full keel may performance wise be best. But from a cost perspective maybe not. To build such a boat it takes a lot more materials (and cost). Maintenace also becomes higher due to heavier weight and more surface area. The boats rig will probably be heavier (more cost) and require more sail area (more cost). So in order to sell more boats to more people need to lower the cost (mass market) and the way to do that is fin keel. Not to say the fin keel does not go faster and points better, but maybe it is not really the best overall design. But in terms of economics, maybe it is the best design. Now maybe you can purchase a good used full keel and then you got a good deal- if you are cruising.

For me with a full keel, I would have a hard time as I do a lot of single handing. I would have a harder time docking a heavier boat and dealing with one that takes more skill to manuver in tight places under both sail and power. But if I were doing some extended ocean passages, maybe full keel would be way to go.

Regards
Cost could explain why the mass market production boats are not doing full keelers but would not explain why luxury boat builders or custom boats made by NA to clients with an unlimited budget are not full keelers.

As I have explained the Luxury boat builders were doing full keelers 40 years ago and the same manufacturers are doing now fin keel boats. That has nothing to do with price but with providing clients with what they want: better sailing boats.

Regards

Paulo
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