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  #391  
Old 04-21-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
I disagree. I think you are assuming that all fin keel boats have shallow flat bottom hulls. True some do but there are all degrees in between as well.

Do you think this boat would have a bumpy ride?
True. There are many heavy-disp. fin-keelers like that ...In my mind I was thinking of newer race-inspired fin-keelers with the long extended bulb-type keels and flat wide bodies...That boat there in the pic is alright in my book...kinda tubby though...lol..
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  #392  
Old 04-21-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by souljour2000 View Post
True. There are many heavy-disp. fin-keelers like that ...In my mind I was thinking of newer race-inspired fin-keelers with the long extended bulb-type keels and flat wide bodies...That boat there in the pic is alright in my book...kinda tubby though...lol..
It is not what is considered a heavy displacement boat.
It has a D/L ratio 256 and is thought of as a performance cruiser.

Tubby? With a beam of 12'2" and almost 40' overall length it is narrower than a Pogo 10.50 which is 6' shorter overall.
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  #393  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Could you mention the name of the boat/model, LOA? And approx. year, perhaps? Thanks. Interesting point.

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
It is not what is considered a heavy displacement boat. It has a D/L ratio 256 and is thought of as a performance cruiser. Tubby? With a beam of 12'2" and almost 40' overall length it is narrower than a Pogo 10.50 which is 6' shorter overall.
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  #394  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I thought most would know the design.
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Full or fin keel?-valiant_40_photo.jpg   Full or fin keel?-valiant_40_drawing.jpg   Full or fin keel?-3.jpg  
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  #395  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I thought you were just being coy, sweetheart

Seriously, even if I was almost d*mn certain, it's nice to remove all doubt, for us youngsters. A link to the data wouldn't hurt? Valiant 40-1 .

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I thought most would know the design.

Last edited by Daily Alice; 04-21-2012 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 04-21-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
I disagree. I think you are assuming that all fin keel boats have shallow flat bottom hulls. True some do but there are all degrees in between as well.

Do you think this boat would have a bumpy ride?
Some of the high performance fins....you can barely look down long enough to pick up your coffee with out going off course. My full keel was outfitted with a self-steering vane which was removed because the boat will sail for days on end with a lashed tiller.

My boat is 30loa, 25lwl, 8'9"beam, 5' dafft about15,000lbs....deepest point is at the base of the rudder post (transom hung rudder with slight rake to transom).

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-21-2012 at 02:54 AM.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Thought it looked very familiar of late...there's been alot of discussion of valiant 40's lately...They have alot going for them certainly. I think that photo may have even been posted on another thread recently...I guess it is not that tubby really...especially compared to catalina 400 or Morgan OI's...
My old Morgan Columbia 40 is 10' 6" on the beam...39' and change loa...She comes in a bit over 7 knots theoretical..The bow itself may not have wave-piercing slender-entry...but being narrow...the whole boat does have wave-piercing form...also gives back some maneuverabilty lost by the full keel too...She has lots of storage and tankage... some reserve bouyancy with her overhangs...etc Agreed, they all have their plus and minus...one just has to find the boat that's right for you.....
I have felt lucky to get every boat I have had...And often just as happy to see 'em go...I said goodbye to my S&S Columbia 29 with some regret..but I'm over it..same thing with the Seafarer24..a fine daysailer and capable of occasional and select coastal work...Some day I'll want one of those back perhaps...I get old boats on the cheap...as long as they got some sailing left in them...I sail 'em as much as I can and then sell them for more or less what I got 'em for when something better comes along...I don't think there's much new under the sun , newer sailboats are still slow. Just often less comfortably so... IMHO. Now I got a boat I'd like to keep for awhile I think...that the guy in the 40-foot trawler is going to have a harder time sloshing me about in on the weekends...and while not discussed often...that kind of "performance" counts for alot in busy SW Florida channels...

Last edited by souljour2000; 04-21-2012 at 03:29 AM.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Yes beam has increased a lot in the last few decades. I think the Valiant is a great design, not super light but not massively heavy either, and a good performing boat in most if not all conditions. A Valiant 40 won its class in the Swiftsure race out of Victoria last year.

Even though it would be fun to sail a Pogo or one similar they wouldn't be my choice for an offshore boat.
If I could have my ideal boat built it would be moderate displacement, virtually no overhang, narrow with balanced waterlines, fin keel with spade rudder right aft, interior similar to a 35' boat - but about 45' long. A smaller Sundeer.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Some of the high performance fins....you can barely look down long enough to pick up your coffee with out going off course. My full keel was outfitted with a self-steering vane which was removed because the boat will sail for days on end with a lashed tiller.

My boat is 30loa, 25lwl, 8'9"beam, 5' dafft about15,000lbs....deepest point is at the base of the rudder post (transom hung rudder with slight rake to transom).
Agreed. But I think a lot of this thread is about the extremes - flat bottom and narrow deep fin vs heavy full keel. My point is that there are moderate fin keel boats that do not have many of the vices that plague the superlights. There are also a few full keel boats that are quite light.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Would that be the good "Captain Cicero"?

With the high performance fins you mention, would this issue (poor tracking, rapidly "going off course") relate more to the rudder design/placement and overall weighted balance of the boat, than the fin keel itself? Going back to the "feathers on an arrow" design idea, I found this in Coles' "Heavy Weather Sailing (6th ed., 2008, rev., Peter Bruce, "Yacht Design and Construction for Heavy Weather," p. 8):

"Small wetted area carries with it advantages that have resulted in the almost universal adoption of the short keel and separate rudder. Comparatively [to various full keel designs, just discussed] it means equal performance with less sail area, especially in light weather, or to windward when speeds are low. Using a short keel the required position of the ballast dictates the location of the CLR [center of lateral resistance]. This disadvantage can be lessened by locating disposable weights as far forward as possible, permitting the ballast keel to come aft, but such gains are limited and the best available strategy to move the CLR aft seems to be to use a large skeg and rudder. These serve the function of feathers on an arrow. Most new boats follow this pattern and, if the ends are balanced, they can behave well, exhibiting no loss of steering control, ability to heave-to or other good seagoing characteristics."

What do you think? A "large skeg and rudder" hardly sounds like most newer production designs!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Some of the high performance fins....you can barely look down long enough to pick up your coffee with out going off course. My full keel was outfitted with a self-steering vane which was removed because the boat will sail for days on end with a lashed tiller.

My boat is 30loa, 25lwl, 8'9"beam, 5' dafft about15,000lbs....deepest point is at the base of the rudder post (transom hung rudder with slight rake to transom).

Last edited by Daily Alice; 04-21-2012 at 03:36 AM.
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