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  #411  
Old 04-22-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

PCP :

Why on earth would "lighter on the helm" attract anyone on a long haul?

I remember 27 days with a long keel and heavy helm.

I would not trade it for anything.

But then again, maybe if I had a lighter helm my boat would have been more fun, or "sail better" or something?

Try a long haul sometime on that Benetau. Steer it manually too. Then try a long keeler with a heavy helm. It'll be educational. But don't compare the two ships around the marks on a day race, or you will find that you will like your Benetau so much that you will never touch a long keeler ever again.

Better still, take your Benetau out into a mid Atlantic gale, wait for the rollers to build, and run before them off the quarter. When you do, you may find helm sensitivity is not one of your priorities. Nor speed.

I have done a long haul with a long keeled ship. By contrast, a single afternoon with a deep fin convinced me it was not for me. It was fun, but I wouldn't want to own it. That decision was nothing to do with the age of the ships, or materials, or computers.

No. Deep fins are simply not for me.

I don't like them.

Give a ship like this a fair trial...

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3306

.... in the rough stuff, running before a big sea.

You may get to like that keel more than you think.
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Last edited by Rockter; 04-22-2012 at 12:55 PM.
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  #412  
Old 04-22-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockter View Post
PCP :

Why on earth would "lighter on the helm" attract anyone on a long haul?

I remember 27 days with a long keel and heavy helm.

...
An heavy helm does only mean that the boat is not well balanced. Some full keel boats have an heavy helm even with a rightly balanced sails.

A boat with a light helm does not mean that it has an inferior tracking ability or that it stays less on its course, just that you need to make less force to maintain or alter course and therefore will require less energy from the autopilot.

If you have the sails balanced (as any good sailor would have) on a well designed boat, as most on these days, you can let go the wheel and the boat will continue happily its course.

Regards

Paulo
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  #413  
Old 04-22-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I want to do a yawl-conversion on my 18,200 lb Columbia 40 full-keeler...gonna be awhile though...need to address the steel skeleton though should just be preventative...like drenching it with rust-inhibitor...will eliminate it altogether down the road..and then the hydraulic-armed centerboard...same thing for now...rust-inhibitor...then I don't know until further examination of the components... but need to fix and re-enforce the foredeck first actually...got a sweet drop-forged 6"x6" base ss sampson post from old-school days I am gonna put there...yawl-conversion eventually as I said is a possibilty,,and might not be too much more costly than a self-steering system or a new but usually questionable autopilot...I know that being narrow at 10' 6" the boat will be a failry wet ride at hull speed(7.16 kts) but she should be fairly stable surfing and she can punch through oncoming chop I am sure...and the thing is like the rock of gibraltar at anchor in 20 mph winds...sippin rum...wish I was on her now...I love her...Yes..am still in honeymoon stage...don't ruin it...fin-keelers are fine...whatever.. Just happy with what I got...and that is.... a boat I feel can go alot of places...

Last edited by souljour2000; 04-22-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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  #414  
Old 04-22-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

PCP :

By "lighter on the helm", they mean that it needs less input at the helm to change course. They are not talking about sail balance.

I would be very interested to see that Benetau of yours hold its course on a broad reach.

Hands off with no autopilot?

My long keeler won't.

That Benetau must be quite a ship to hold a broad reach hands-off.
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Old 04-25-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockter View Post
PCP

I love traditional boats and old boats and it make all sense to preserve those boats and even in some cases to build replicas, but not because they sail better. Just because they represent the best it was made at that time. They all will certainly offer great sailing....but obviously not an overall better sailing than a modern designed boat, otherwise modern boats would only be improvements of those designs and not completely different boats.

You are just being silly with comments like that. What on earth does "sail better" mean?

For me, its a long keeled boat every time. I have owned one for 20 years, a Union Polaris 36. If it sank (heaven forbid), I would buy another one.

I have sailed on deep fin boats. They are faster, they point higher, but they are not for me. They don't "sail better" for me. They never will. All that helm correction and tweaking? You can keep it.

Give me a 36 ft boat, 22,000 lb displacement, and a full keel cast into the fibreglass. You can have your deep fin keels, and bolt them on, and you can point higher and go faster. You can even have one of those lovely spade rudders too.

As for "Sail better"?... for you, yes, but not for me, no matter when it was built.
.
I could not have put that better myself. As far as reversing in tight marinas goes, I have a bow thruster in mine that takes the guesswork out of that as well.



ATB

Michael
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  #416  
Old 04-25-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

As far as manuvering in tight spaces I find heavy displacement has it's advantages. Put it in reverse and throw the helm over one way and just as you are starting to move backwards, put it in forward and throw the helm over the other way, this allows you to turn the boat on it's own axis...I have even seen it done with a 100' schooner (and no bow thruster).
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  #417  
Old 04-26-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
That Benetau must be quite a ship to hold a broad reach hands-off.
never mentioned a broad reach.

dave
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  #418  
Old 05-10-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

If you are planning on SW Florida and key and Bahamas, you need a shallow draft boat. Period. DOn't listen to these guys with 7-9 foot drafts in the NE or PNW. I have about 5'10 (6 foot after all the pots and pans) and I run aground ALL THE TIME!! And I know the area very well.

You are starting in FMB. Unless you don't mind sitting a lot and waiting for a tide or running aground in the miserable mile, go shallow draft. Six foot max. THis is typically a wing keel. SOme modified fulls will work too.

As far as the the theoretical debate about which is better, for racing and deep water, I would always go fin. But for cruising anywhere that has shallow water, 6+ is tough, and anything at 7 for much of the area I have been is a waste of time. That has been my experience. I personally would never own a deep draft boat which rules out most fins for me. I don't like 6'!

I know the area you are in. Trust me. I have seen 3' draft motor boats run aground all the time.

Brian
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  #419  
Old 05-10-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Hi! It seems that what really works there is a Pogo, a Malango an Opium or even a Southerly, boats that combines the advantages of a deep big draft fin keel with the advantages of a motorboat draft

Regards

Paulo
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  #420  
Old 05-13-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

boy Brian, if you run aground a lot down there with NO tide change, I do nto want to know how you would do up here in the northern climes with 12-15+ foot tide changes. I see 7.x-22.x' at my slip on extreme tide change days on the depth guage!

at the end of the day, one needs a keel that works for them, hull shape that works for them, hull strength for conditions they will meet etc. Not sure a hershoff(sp) 12.5 will make a good ocean going rig in many conditions, even tho designed by a known great architect, full keel etc. that open cockpit will probably kill it! if the light scantlings do not in the mean time.

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