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  #421  
Old 05-13-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

You can touch bottom with a 9' draft or a 2' draft - the trick is to avoid it with any boat.
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  #422  
Old 05-13-2012
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For those that state with utmost authority that one keel be better for the Florida shoals than the next; nonsense. If you continue to ground, please learn to check your charts and tide tables. If the ground is ever shifting why is it that we don't hear of freighters and other naval ships constantly aground in the southern states? Keel length is relative. A 6 foot draft on a 50 foot boat that IS a shallow draft design. My issue with fin keels is the inherent structural incongruities with an increased (and increasing) possibility of catastrophic failure. A cursory search on Google of "boat looses keel" is disturbing to say the least. Keel type is argumentativly as personal a preference as whether or not you have a ketch, sloop or power boat. If you still keep grounding, perhaps some training wheels might be in order.
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  #423  
Old 05-13-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sea_hunter View Post
For those that state with utmost authority that one keel be better for the Florida shoals than the next; nonsense. If you continue to ground, please learn to check your charts and tide tables. If the ground is ever shifting why is it that we don't hear of freighters and other naval ships constantly aground in the southern states? Keel length is relative. A 6 foot draft on a 50 foot boat that IS a shallow draft design. My issue with fin keels is the inherent structural incongruities with an increased (and increasing) possibility of catastrophic failure. A cursory search on Google of "boat looses keel" is disturbing to say the least. .....
Not to mention big sail yachts from whom a 3.00m draft is shoal draft. You a smaller boat or a boat that can raise the keel you can go to more places and be more nearer from the beach, or on the beach but that's all.

Regarding losing the keel if you pay attention those boats are very high profile racers that have been built to be as light as possible and that are to be used with regular inspection checks to all stressful parts of the hull. There are no cruisers losing keels, not even big mass production cruisers at least to in any meaningful number.

There are cases where boats are thrown to the coast by storms or bad navigation and even so the fin keels survived. You have the recent case of that Sydney another one with a Mini class racer that was put again in the water and sustained not only the efforts on the way to the beach but also the efforts when the boat was pulled again (by boats) to the sea again and you have for instance these cases:





Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-13-2012 at 07:25 PM.
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  #424  
Old 05-13-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I live in the Pacific North West with over 10ft tidal change, I draw 5' so theoretically anything that the chart lists being wet at mean low is navigable at high tide....theoretically. I grew up on the Chesapeake, 3' tidal change and if you ran aground it was sand or mud...up here it is rock so the idea of running aground is unnerving (ironically the only time I have run aground here was in the mouth of the Frazier river, sand) when I was in BC even though I knew the charts were in meters...I treated them as feet.
Joshua Slochum said "Anyone who says they have never run aground has never been anywhere (or is lieing)".
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  #425  
Old 05-14-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo, while I enjoyed your video posts, and there appears to be little or no damage to the keels or the hull keel joint, it requires a experience eye to determine how bad the damage. Just ask the crew of the Cynthia Woods.

Wolfenzee, having spent 35+ years boating the PNW, some of it commercial fishing, some of it cruising throughout many rivers and inlets of BC, Alaska and Washington including the Fraser, a river that moves 20 million tons of sediment every year. Keeping this in mind, if you're outside the channel markers on any arm of the Fraser River Delta you're on your own.
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Quote:
when I was in BC even though I knew the charts were in meters...I treated them as feet.
This should have actually been beneficial as 1 meter is about 3 feet. If your were siting in 5 meters of water, thinking it was 5 feet, it would be closer to 15 feet; so I really don't understand where you're going with this thread, other than sinking deeper into the sand.
By the by, the quote you attribute to Slocum wasn't actually by him and the fact that his circumnavigation took place in 1909, effectively removes him from the argument with today's availability of modern charts, GPS and the like. (I have to add that Slocum disappeared in November 1909 while aboard his boat, the Spray) While I applaud your attempt of rationalizing incompetence, it's a ludicrous idea that in these modern times with the availability of updated charts and depth sounders that "you're not a boater till you've grounded out". Perhaps this argument should be employed in the defense of the Costa Concordia's captain.

At high tide, fish eat ants; at low tide, ants eat fish. ~ Thai saying.

Last edited by sea_hunter; 05-14-2012 at 08:47 AM.
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  #426  
Old 05-14-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by sea_hunter View Post
Paulo, while I enjoyed your video posts, and there appears to be little or no damage to the keels or the hull keel joint, it requires a experience eye to determine how bad the damage. Just ask the crew of the Cynthia Woods.

....
This one I saw by myself. This guy run on rocks doing over 6K. Brand new boat

The lead keel was bent but not the slightest damage on the outside joint or the interior frame work that distributes the loads or on the attachment points.





Regards

Paulo
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  #427  
Old 05-14-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

PCP :
With a long-keeled ship, the keel will not bend like that.
And as for "not the slightest damage", well, for me, read "not the slightest visible damage".
I wonder how it would slam in a big forward sea?
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  #428  
Old 05-14-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Rockter View Post
PCP :
With a long-keeled ship, the keel will not bend like that.
And as for "not the slightest damage", well, for me, read "not the slightest visible damage".
I wonder how it would slam in a big forward sea?
No, I had talked with the guys from the shipyard. No damage at all except a bent lead keel.

You have to decide what is being discussed The discussion was about keels falling off. Regarding the bent keel this is an all lead keel on a fast cruiser-racer. Keels on medium weight cruisers like the ones on the movies are stronger.

Regarding what would have happen with a full keeler hitting at full speed rocks well I guess it would have depended on the boat. The keel would not bent but the damages sustained on the keel and hull could be far more expensive to repair than a piece of bent lead. Jeff has explained already that quite well on a post on this thread.

Regards

Paulo
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  #429  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Sail the boat you like and fits your mission. This isn't a fact based argument thread, its opinion. As far as safety and efficiency, the argument about 'fin' vs. full was over and the door nailed shut with Mr. Perry's Valiant 40 and the Cal 40. Boats of BOTH types (full and fin keel) sail successfully pretty much anywhere people sail. Sail what you want and have fun doing it, but don't make an argument rationalizing what millions safe ocean miles has proven to work very very well. So much so that full keel boats are becoming rare.

Last edited by puddinlegs; 05-14-2012 at 01:29 PM.
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  #430  
Old 05-14-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sea_hunter View Post
For those that state with utmost authority that one keel be better for the Florida shoals than the next; nonsense. If you continue to ground, please learn to check your charts and tide tables. If the ground is ever shifting why is it that we don't hear of freighters and other naval ships constantly aground in the southern states? Keel length is relative. A 6 foot draft on a 50 foot boat that IS a shallow draft design. My issue with fin keels is the inherent structural incongruities with an increased (and increasing) possibility of catastrophic failure. A cursory search on Google of "boat looses keel" is disturbing to say the least. Keel type is argumentativly as personal a preference as whether or not you have a ketch, sloop or power boat. If you still keep grounding, perhaps some training wheels might be in order.
The seafloor is ever shifting... that's not an "if" it can be seen on anyones depthsounder from one year to the next. Because freighters and navel ships use channels that are regularly dredged and monitored for depth.
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