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  #431  
Old 05-14-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sea_hunter View Post
Paulo, while I enjoyed your video posts, and there appears to be little or no damage to the keels or the hull keel joint, it requires a experience eye to determine how bad the damage. Just ask the crew of the Cynthia Woods.

Wolfenzee, having spent 35+ years boating the PNW, some of it commercial fishing, some of it cruising throughout many rivers and inlets of BC, Alaska and Washington including the Fraser, a river that moves 20 million tons of sediment every year. Keeping this in mind, if you're outside the channel markers on any arm of the Fraser River Delta you're on your own.
Your comment
This should have actually been beneficial as 1 meter is about 3 feet. If your were siting in 5 meters of water, thinking it was 5 feet, it would be closer to 15 feet; so I really don't understand where you're going with this thread, other than sinking deeper into the sand.
By the by, the quote you attribute to Slocum wasn't actually by him and the fact that his circumnavigation took place in 1909, effectively removes him from the argument with today's availability of modern charts, GPS and the like. (I have to add that Slocum disappeared in November 1909 while aboard his boat, the Spray) While I applaud your attempt of rationalizing incompetence, it's a ludicrous idea that in these modern times with the availability of updated charts and depth sounders that "you're not a boater till you've grounded out". Perhaps this argument should be employed in the defense of the Costa Concordia's captain.

At high tide, fish eat ants; at low tide, ants eat fish. ~ Thai saying.
The only times I ran aground on the Frazier was once when avoiding bine run over by a tug and the other when I was waaaaaay off shore during low tide in a year that was running way below mean (that delta extends really far out). Each time was a slight bump...the first I just reversed off of the other was simply an unerving bump followed by thropuwing the helm hard over.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 05-14-2012 at 08:19 PM.
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  #432  
Old 05-15-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Great advice in here. I have almost always had full keels but the drag and (as mentioned) the beer gut do assure me they are best design. Many older traditional boats have these monstrosities in draft and we have always been told in the wide open app the tracking was better. The fin Keel is by far the quicker but if any rule holds fast in an ocean vessel it is that there are always extenuating circumstances. Especially when it comes to a static design trying to cope with a dynamic environment.
While down in the Caribbean where coral heads can surprise you and charts can't help you may just kedging off some coral reef. It happen's! A Brewer's bite or the full on protected rudder aft of the brick outhouse keel may be just the thing. There's also more questions and with sailing always another answer. The ability of a vessel to back or maneuver in close quarters. It's likely that such a question as asked at the beginning of this thread may need qualifying. "What is it that the owner intends with the boat."
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  #433  
Old 05-15-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

So, full keel with a retractable centerboard is an great option. I have had a 1967 Hinckley Bermuda 40 yawl since 1988 that needs 4'4" with the board up and 9'7" with the board fully down. Coordinates the need for a fin when needed with the security of a full keel and rudder/prop protection while handling a shallow body of water like the Bahamas or Great Salt Pond on Block or Narragansett Bay, where I keep her. She handles well when going to weather, beaming or running, and the centerboard makes a difference upwind. Will she ever be a race horse, no. But enjoying shallow water is a delight.
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  #434  
Old 05-15-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Arja

Good answer!

Tartan 27, keel centerboard. Draws 3' 2" board up, 6'4" board down.

Very happy with the compromise. Enough performance, nice motion, gets in the skinny water.

All boats are a list of compromises. Everyone has to find their own list.

Skywalker
T27 #249
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  #435  
Old 05-15-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Fin keels (as a whole ) are quicker than full keels (as a whole ). It doesn't take much wind to get my full up to hull seed...and some fins really poke along. Compareing ALL fins to ALL fulls to prove your point is generlizing too much.
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  #436  
Old 05-16-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

If full keels were as a rule, faster, every race boat on the planet would sport them. They aren't, but that's not really germane to the argument... which was what?

Personally, I'd have a B-40 because it sails well enough for my mission and has the prettiest shear spring ever put to paper. Wide side decks are also a huge plus for my preferences. And did I say it's just a beautiful boat with half the interior volume of anything made in the past 2-3 decades?

Last edited by puddinlegs; 05-16-2012 at 11:09 AM.
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  #437  
Old 05-16-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

My full keeled cutter sails like a dream, especially on a beam reach, I don't need to touch the wheel for an hour or two at a time if the swell isn't too big. It has survived three hurricanes. It powers through waves that would stop a lighter boat. It is extremely comfortable at anchor. It feels like a tank.
It turns slowly. It bangs on the dock all night if we're in a marina with a cross current. In reverse, I don't usually know what will happen until I'm backing at 3 knots or better. Usually the wrong thing happens.
I don't worry about bumping the keel on something, ever. I might worry about the getting stuck part, but the bump damaging my boat? No.

Last edited by sww914; 05-16-2012 at 11:38 AM.
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  #438  
Old 05-16-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
boy Brian, if you run aground a lot down there with NO tide change, I do nto want to know how you would do up here in the northern climes with 12-15+ foot tide changes. I see 7.x-22.x' at my slip on extreme tide change days on the depth guage!

at the end of the day, one needs a keel that works for them, hull shape that works for them, hull strength for conditions they will meet etc. Not sure a hershoff(sp) 12.5 will make a good ocean going rig in many conditions, even tho designed by a known great architect, full keel etc. that open cockpit will probably kill it! if the light scantlings do not in the mean time.

Marty
Hey Marty,

The difference is that (for example) Dad has 22 feet under his keel at low tide. I generally have about six inches. We measure our water depth in inches under the keel down here! I generally anchor in about 7-10 feet of water. You have to get many miles offshore to even hit 20 feet of water! Anything over 6 and you simply will be very restricted on where you can go down here. I say, pick the keel for where you plan to cruise or how you intend to use the boat. In some areas, draft makes no difference. In some areas, it does.

BTW, hopefully we can meet up one of these days. Beautiful area.

Brian
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  #439  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by sea_hunter View Post
For those that state with utmost authority that one keel be better for the Florida shoals than the next; nonsense. If you continue to ground, please learn to check your charts and tide tables. If the ground is ever shifting why is it that we don't hear of freighters and other naval ships constantly aground in the southern states? Keel length is relative. A 6 foot draft on a 50 foot boat that IS a shallow draft design. My issue with fin keels is the inherent structural incongruities with an increased (and increasing) possibility of catastrophic failure. A cursory search on Google of "boat looses keel" is disturbing to say the least. Keel type is argumentativly as personal a preference as whether or not you have a ketch, sloop or power boat. If you still keep grounding, perhaps some training wheels might be in order.
It's not the keel for me, its the draft.

The difference you need to understand is that in the PNW, when the tide comes in you have many feet under your keel assuming you stay in the channel. In Florida, the approach to my marina is about 6 - 7 at high. The middle of the channels is often 6. The ICW is supposed to be kept at 7+, but often is not. Many of the islands and approaches are simply not approachable with boats that have a deep draft.

I don't care what the tides are if you cannot get in at high because you have a deep draft boat, you cannot get in. That excludes a whole lot of beautiful areas down here that you can explore. Buy the draft for where you plan to cruise.

Brian
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  #440  
Old 05-16-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I grew up on the Chesepeake with lots of sand and shifting shoals so if the draft of your boat allowed you to jump over board and push the boat off a sand bar (with your head above water) it was a convienient draft. I grew up sailing Person Tritons (draft 4') and my present boat has a draft of 5'..... more than I am used to but when I look around it doen't seem that bad.
I was in the ICW in a Triton, there was a boat not much bigger than ours aground, as we made our way over to it catiously (and were starting to run out of water) we asked how much they drew..."8'".....it was a fancy racing boat with a deep fin kee
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