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  #441  
Old 05-17-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Brian,
Your dad is in a DEEP marina. I'm literally in 7.x' with a -4 tide. I draw about 5.5'. A lot around here will be in the 8-10' with some of the lowest lows. I see 22 when it is at the highest of +12' that is right, 16' on the BIGGEST swings of the year. usually about 8-10' tween highest high, an lowest low.

If your Dad makes it to fishermans bay on lopez, the channel is 5' at 0 tide. So if you try to go in at -2.5 which is a low low up there, we is screwed! I need to personally be at min +1' to get in, tried at .5 lst summer, bumped a few times.

marty
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  #442  
Old 05-17-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Hey Marty,

The difference is that (for example) Dad has 22 feet under his keel at low tide. I generally have about six inches. We measure our water depth in inches under the keel down here! I generally anchor in about 7-10 feet of water. You have to get many miles offshore to even hit 20 feet of water! Anything over 6 and you simply will be very restricted on where you can go down here. I say, pick the keel for where you plan to cruise or how you intend to use the boat. In some areas, draft makes no difference. In some areas, it does.

BTW, hopefully we can meet up one of these days. Beautiful area.

Brian

Hi Brian!, I agree with what you say except that thing about measure in inches the distance behind your keel. For being anchored you have always to count with the possibility of waves and at least one meter in flat water is the standard precaution even if you can get away with less. On very sheltered places with almost no tides, with sand or mud bottom sometimes I go to 30 cm of water behind the kell but I risk some hard bumbs if some cargo passes far away at speed and the wash comes there.

If you take, for safety measure, inches behind your keel instead of about a m while sailing or going under way it is more than natural that you will be plenty aground. As someone has said the bottom, except when it is rock changes, not that much, but really some inches is nothing regarding that.

On the conditions you describe a boat with even less draft seems more appropriated, a center-boarder or one of the modern swing keelers that were developed exactly for a situation like that aggravated by tides with more than 6 or 7m difference.

Of course all boats are a compromise and we get the one that fits us better. Solutions for a small draft, with exception of those modern boats with swing ballasted keels and some with keels that can go vertically up with a lead torpedo on the bottom, are always paid with a considerably worst sailing performance, but those boats that I am talking about are more rare and considerably more expensive not to mention that they give more maintenance than fixed keelers and the market offer is smaller...so, compromises again

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-17-2012 at 11:14 AM.
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  #443  
Old 05-17-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadfunk48 View Post
The seafloor is ever shifting... that's not an "if" it can be seen on anyones depthsounder from one year to the next. Because freighters and navel ships use channels that are regularly dredged and monitored for depth.
That might have been true 50 or even 25 years ago, today ocean depths are continuously monitored by NOAA. Safe boating information can be found everywhere today; it's your choice how to employ and enjoy.
Integrated Models of Coastal Relief | ngdc.noaa.gov
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  #444  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sea_hunter View Post
That might have been true 50 or even 25 years ago, today ocean depths are continuously monitored by NOAA. Safe boating information can be found everywhere today; it's your choice how to employ and enjoy.
Integrated Models of Coastal Relief | ngdc.noaa.gov
Better not believe that. In some places a single big storm can pill up up to 1m of sand in some places and even close a bar.

Even if it is monitored it will take several months to be included on the chart.


Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-17-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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  #445  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Aye, (agree to disagree) but that's where eyes, common sense, experience, local knowledge and a calibrated depth sounder come in dandy handy. If in doubt, rethink where you're going, and reread your chart as caution wins the day. That's why it's called sailing, not bumper boats.
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  #446  
Old 05-17-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi Brian!, I agree with what you say except that thing about measure in inches the distance behind your keel. For being anchored you have always to count with the possibility of waves and at least one meter in flat water is the standard precaution even if you can get away with less. On very sheltered places with almost no tides, with sand or mud bottom sometimes I go to 30 cm of water behind the kell but I risk some hard bumbs if some cargo passes far away at speed and the wash comes there.

If you take, for safety measure, inches behind your keel instead of about a m while sailing or going under way it is more than natural that you will be plenty aground. As someone has said the bottom, except when it is rock changes, not that much, but really some inches is nothing regarding that.

On the conditions you describe a boat with even less draft seems more appropriated, a center-boarder or one of the modern swing keelers that were developed exactly for a situation like that aggravated by tides with more than 6 or 7m difference.

Of course all boats are a compromise and we get the one that fits us better. Solutions for a small draft, with exception of those modern boats with swing ballasted keels and some with keels that can go vertically up with a lead torpedo on the bottom, are always paid with a considerably worst sailing performance, but those boats that I am talking about are more rare and considerably more expensive not to mention that they give more maintenance than fixed keelers and the market offer is smaller...so, compromises again

Regards

Paulo
Hey Paulo,

Good to see you around!

I think you misunderstood what I was writing. My point was that I often have only inches of water under my keel. The bars change here with the storms, but it isn't really that. THe problem is that it is simply skinny water. For example, the Back Bay is about 5 feet, maybe 5.5 at high. The entrance behind Cay Costa resticts you to about 5-5.5 feet at high. The approach to my marina is maybe 6-7 at high. These are beautiful sailing grounds, but a deep draft boat (anything over 6) will prevent you from seeing much of it.

The Original Poster is based in the Fort Myers Beach area. I know that area extremely well. He would not be happy with a deep draft boat here. He could manage it in the keys, but even some of the approaches would be touch and go. Outside of these areas, like Tampa, Pensacola, or on around the east side, he would be fine. In the PNW he would be fine. But down here, it is miles wide and inches thin.

Take care my friend.

Brian
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  #447  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Better not believe that. In some places a single big storm can pill up up to 1m of sand in some places and even close a bar.

Even if it is monitored it will take several months to be included on the chart.


Regards

Paulo
Absolutely agree. And many of the soundings on charts are very old. I use them as a guideline. For example, Chralie created a whole new cut through the barrier islands nort of Captiva. It is not on the maps. The tides and currents often shoal up the ICW which is "supposed" to be at 7-8 feet minimum. I have bumped at 6. But hey - it's what makes boating exciting!!

Brian
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  #448  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Brian,
Your dad is in a DEEP marina. I'm literally in 7.x' with a -4 tide. I draw about 5.5'. A lot around here will be in the 8-10' with some of the lowest lows. I see 22 when it is at the highest of +12' that is right, 16' on the BIGGEST swings of the year. usually about 8-10' tween highest high, an lowest low.

If your Dad makes it to fishermans bay on lopez, the channel is 5' at 0 tide. So if you try to go in at -2.5 which is a low low up there, we is screwed! I need to personally be at min +1' to get in, tried at .5 lst summer, bumped a few times.

marty
Hey Marty,

Ii think he is going to stay in Olympia some months and then start pushing north to Tacoma and then further from that. Not sure if he is agoing to keep him slip in Olympia very long.

He draws a solid 6, more like 6'2. Nice thing is his Mod Full Keel is easy to get off. I do like that over wings - being easier to get off if you do run aground.

Hope to see you out there. If you come, bring your dog. I will introduce her to Fatty!

Brian
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Me thinks if your measuring your anchorages in inches barely even feet ; where's your scope? Bizarre to say the least.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by sea_hunter View Post
Me thinks if your measuring your anchorages in inches barely even feet ; where's your scope? Bizarre to say the least.
Inches under the keel.

I do not understand what is bizarre about that nor do I understand the relavence of scope on the discussion?

How many years have you cruised south florida and the keys again? Where do you sail?

Brian
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