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  #451  
Old 05-17-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Better not believe that. In some places a single big storm can pill up up to 1m of sand in some places and even close a bar.

Even if it is monitored it will take several months to be included on the chart.


Regards

Paulo
In the Cheasapeake sand bars shift faster than they can be monitored by NOAA....I remeber one little creek where there was a sand bar that went almost allthe way across the mouth....sometimes from one side, sometimes from the other, the locals would stick a marker out to let you know where the bar was at the moment (I remember one that had a sign on it that read "If you can read this you are probably aground").

That is one nice thing about the PNW the rocks don't move, with a 10'+ tidal change, what is possible at high tide compared to what the chart says can be very interesting, I remeber leaving Silva Bay up in BC by a route suggested to me by a "local" (when I asked my crew what the depth sounder said, he said "you don't want to know"). I got out with no problem.
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  #452  
Old 06-18-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I owned a Beneteau 393, a very conventional fin and spade. with a bit of careful tweaking with the sail balance, she would sail upwind without a hand on the wheel.

Sea kindliness, etc etc has nothing to with long keels, its a function of the boat design , weight and the way they are driven. Long keels existed because that was the only way the vessel could be built. The technology did not exist to attach a heavy structure to a wooden frame.

Modern fin keels ( which itself is a broad family) are proven better hydro-dynamically and computer modeling has shown that decisively. Id argue that encapsulating a keel is irrelevant in whether its a fin or not.

Yes , I like old cars and old aircraft too. But I don't persist in arguing they are better then the modern computer designed versions.

If you like full keels ( i don't know where anyone is going to buy one new these days) that fine. No doubt you like old Jaguar cars too. But accept that modern naval architects with access to infinitely more knowledge and computation modeling do actually know what they are doing.

modern boats do "sail better", they are more efficient, faster in a given wind strength, more agile, more controllable ( try surfing) and significantly stronger per llb. Modern technology allows such vessels to maintain high speeds and punch through weather, that has older designs breaking up and so they heave to. Yes this is at the extreme end of the technology, but its shows where the trend is and what its capable of.

Upto the late 60s, the concept of taking a small boat across oceans, was generally regarded as madness, undertaken by a few lunatics, some actually knighted for it. This was because the basic craft, of the day ( and hence its design) simply wasn't up the job, and required enormous maintenance and some skill to achieve these tasks. Small boat design evolved from small coastal fishing technology of the day, such technology never envisaged crossing oceans.

Today anyone in a reasonable well fitted out "plastic fantastic" can cross oceans and circumnavigate. why, primarily because the basic technology in the boat is stronger, more resilient, and efficient. Arguably the sailing skill of the owner is less, but the boat makes up for it.

A boat is a machine, technology moves forward, something designed years ago , simply cannot be better or even as good, the knowledge simply wasn't there. Boats like anything else are a product of continuous evolving technology, there is no historical "sweet" spot.


Dave
Dave, evolution does not always mean "better". Things "evolve" for different reasons...in the case of a sailboat, evolution might mean that boats become cheaper, appear flashier, have a shinier finish and require a blazer to sail.(sorry but cant help but put in the picture of the beneteau the arch in here)



Also as others have pointed out, there were fin keeled boats 100 years ago, it has nothing to do with the technology not being available.

As far as your paragraph

Quote:
Today anyone in a reasonable well fitted out "plastic fantastic" can cross oceans and circumnavigate. why, primarily because the basic technology in the boat is stronger, more resilient, and efficient. Arguably the sailing skill of the owner is less, but the boat makes up for it.
I'm trying to imagine a catalina 30 out here off the Oregon coast compared to my Westsail 32 and coming to the conclusion that what you say is completely wrong. The person in the Catalina 30 is going to have to have far better sailing skills than the person in the heavier older design. That light fin keel boat will require much more attention to keep out of trouble.
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  #453  
Old 06-18-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I like the new is better theory, except that like cars there has been a divergence in performance, and affordability.

Take the mustang for example. The 60's era cars have undeniably more HP and quicker acceleration and top speed than the same model built in the 80's,...why? The 80's car weighs much less and is built with a much more advanced engine with computer controlled fuel injection, it should blow the doors off of it's older counterpart, except is doesn't,...why???

It was designed and built, not to go faster, but to comply with the new regs that forced it to pollute less, and more safety equipment, and be cheaper, and easier to build than it's legacy counterpart.

So are the new cars better? Well for what? Is my new Honda better than my old Mustang? well it get's better gas milage, it is quieter, and easier to drive, it has antilock brakes, and air bags, and a much better sound system than the old AM radio. The bumper is a styrofoam block incased in fiberglass, instead of chrome and steel. If I clip my mailbox it no longer damages the mailbox, but instead disintegrates into a cloud of white dust. But weighs way less than the steel bumper, and protects me better in a collision.

I can cheaply drive coast to coast with no tuneup, no new spark plugs, and carb adjustments. I no longer keep a full tool kit in the trunk, with spare plugs, jets, carb floats, etc... Is it better??? I wouldn't want to race my old Mustang in it.
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  #454  
Old 06-18-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by CapnBilll View Post
I like the new is better theory, except that like cars there has been a divergence in performance, and affordability.

Take the mustang for example. The 60's era cars have undeniably more HP and quicker acceleration and top speed than the same model built in the 80's,...why? The 80's car weighs much less and is built with a much more advanced engine with computer controlled fuel injection, it should blow the doors off of it's older counterpart, except is doesn't,...why???

It was designed and built, not to go faster, but to comply with the new regs that forced it to pollute less, and more safety equipment, and be cheaper, and easier to build than it's legacy counterpart.

So are the new cars better? Well for what? Is my new Honda better than my old Mustang? well it get's better gas milage, it is quieter, and easier to drive, it has antilock brakes, and air bags, and a much better sound system than the old AM radio. The bumper is a styrofoam block incased in fiberglass, instead of chrome and steel. If I clip my mailbox it no longer damages the mailbox, but instead disintegrates into a cloud of white dust. But weighs way less than the steel bumper, and protects me better in a collision.

I can cheaply drive coast to coast with no tuneup, no new spark plugs, and carb adjustments. I no longer keep a full tool kit in the trunk, with spare plugs, jets, carb floats, etc... Is it better??? I wouldn't want to race my old Mustang in it.

+1 Capt Bill...good post...
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  #455  
Old 06-19-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

...

Last edited by puddinlegs; 06-19-2012 at 02:48 AM.
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  #456  
Old 06-20-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I have been looking at this thread from the start. It is long and has opinoins on both sides. Thats what makes it a good thread! I am glad I am not ready to buy yet. I think the right boat will find me. Having a great summer water temps are in the high 70s F nice and warm. Have Fun ... LOU
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  #457  
Old 06-20-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Seakindness and stability, which has been hinted at in this thread, is affected my more than the keel shape. We have a full keel and while we love it, many times we wish we had a modified 3/4 keel to reduce wetted area and make us a bit more maneuverable. For cruising you should try and get an underbody with a solid skedge and firmly attached and protected rudder. One advantage of a full keel is the rudder is enclosed in an appeture which means we have much less worry about ref lobster/crab pot entanglements.
Stability is driven by underbody shape, wieght, CoB and length/beam ratio. Unfortunately a lot of modern hulls based on the charter market dont look like that. They tend to have a narrow fin keel, unprotected prop and rudder, and wide beam that stretches all the way to the stern, all things which dont contribute to stability or seakindness....and yet cruise the Bahamas/Caribean and you see lots of these boats out there because they tend to be readily available and usually affordable compared to a long range bluewater boat. The skippers either accept the rough ride in a seaway or sail in conditions which its tolerable.
Boats are a huge trade off, increased room below can detract from stability/seakindness. Strong numbers in stab and seakindness can result in poor performance (acceleration/maneuverability). Big thing for a buyer is to assess whats important to you and adjust accordingly.
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  #458  
Old 07-31-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

LOL!

I am somewhat flabbergasted.....have any of you ever heard of Doug Peterson?
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  #459  
Old 07-31-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Also,

Wide sections, either fore,or aft, preferably both...make for reserve bouyancy. This is a good thing...the compromise being wetted surface and thus speed.
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  #460  
Old 07-31-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Wide sections either end of the boat do not necessarily mean reserve bouyancy. That depends on how they are shaped.

But wide bow sections mean a harder collision with waves and less moderated impact, so more pitching, and more rapid deaccelleration in each wave collision, and therefore a much less comfortable motion combined with less speed upwind in a chop.

Wide stern sections generally mean better dampening so a little less pitching at a slower speed up wind.
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