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  #491  
Old 09-30-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

And it might very well be.

Like I said, I do not feel like I belong to Team Long Keel just because it happens to be the design of my boat. Honestly the main reason I got a longer keel boat was because I felt that they would be mechanically better connected to the keel due to its length and because the other fin keeled boat I had surveyed had a little flexing problem there (it was an encapsulated keel)

Come to think of it now, with the experience I got on this one, that would probably have been repairable in a few week-ends but that's another story.

Bottom line is I could have gone for a fin keel.
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  #492  
Old 09-30-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

One doesn't have to be a boat designer or naval architect to understand the mechanics and hydrodynamics of keels. There are lots of sailors who aren't naval architects, but have enough technical savvy to clearly understand the characteristics of different keel shapes. The keel is only one part of an assemblage of often interactive parts, so it can be presumptive to label a boat as a "full keel" or "fin keel" boat, as if that is sufficient to characterize the boat.

Take the Island Packet (IP)cutters, for example. All the ones I've sailed had a modified full keel, but their shortfall in tacking related as much to getting the genoa through the narrow slot between the inner and outer forestays when coming about. The keel/rudder combination doesn't allow you to pivot through the wind as crisply as a fin keel/ spade rudder arrangement would. This problem would be mitigated if you had a sloop rig (as some IPs are configured). The IPs probably do better in higher winds because of that cutter rig vs. a higher sloop rig--not because they are full keel boats.

That said, there is a loyal IP following, not necessarily because their customers are fond of a full keel, but because the total package fits their lifestyle. I have been going back to IPs for Caribbean charters because the IPs work for me in that venue. In southeastern New England, however, I am happy with my own boat for a variety of reasons--not just because is has a fin keel.

If folks are passionate about their boats, so what? Putting down someone else's, however is another matter.
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  #493  
Old 09-30-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

One doesn't have to be a boat designer or naval architect to understand the mechanics and hydrodynamics of keels. There are lots of sailors who aren't naval architects, but have enough technical savvy to clearly understand the characteristics of different keel shapes. The keel is only one part of an assemblage of often interactive parts, so it can be presumptive to label a boat as a "full keel" or "fin keel" boat, as if that is sufficient to characterize the boat.

Take the Island Packet (IP)cutters, for example. All the ones I've sailed had a modified full keel, but their shortfall in tacking related as much to getting the genoa through the narrow slot between the inner and outer forestays when coming about. The keel/rudder combination doesn't allow you to pivot through the wind as crisply as a fin keel/ spade rudder arrangement would. This problem would be mitigated if you had a sloop rig (as some IPs are configured). The IPs probably do better in higher winds because of that cutter rig vs. a higher sloop rig--not because they are full keel boats.

That said, there is a loyal IP following, not necessarily because their customers are fond of a full keel, but because the total package fits their lifestyle. I have been going back to IPs for Caribbean charters because the IPs work for me in that venue. In southeastern New England, however, I am happy with my own boat for a variety of reasons--not just because is has a fin keel.

If folks are passionate about their boats, so what? Putting down someone else's, however is another matter.
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  #494  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I can't believe this went on for 50 pages.

Apples, oranges - which is better?

I love the technical discussions, the opinions I take with a grain of salt (and then a shot of tequila).
Here's my opinion -
On my Gemini (catamaran) with the boards up it was akin to a long shoal keel - 32 feet long, but only 18 inches deep - and it sucked to leeward, I mean drifted. Board down and it was 5/12 feet of asymmetrical lifting pointy-ness.

On the Irwin 38 Mk II I have the shoal keel, 4.5 feet of stubby. I don't care about the extra 2 degrees of leeward drift in 5 knots of wind - because I'm probably going to be motoring in 5 knots
Once the boat gets to speed it points just fine.
I don't care about the 3-5 degrees of extra point I might get out of a fin keel (6 foot, optional on the boat) - because I'm not racing for the buoy.

I might care about the extra degrees on a 500 mile off shore leg but only because it will save me a half day on the trip. Then again so will being able to cross that sand bar without dragging or bouncing off the coral.
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  #495  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
I can't believe this went on for 50 pages.
Yes, amazing, isn't it??

And probably no converts either.. in any event it's been interesting, entertaining and vexing, all at the same time.

Compromise and setting priorities is what it's all about.. and always has been.
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  #496  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

We could go for 51 pages.

Agree with Faster that its about compromise and priorities: rarely does a single parameter, like the keel, decide the matter.

My wife was enamored of the Island Packets we have chartered from Florida to the Caribbean for quite a while. She liked the roomy cabins in particular and the large galley and all the storage. Our own boat, by comparison, has a narrow cabin and wide side decks and a keel trunk that splits the main cabin and runs all the way to the coachroof. Our storage is probably a third that of an IP of the same length (35').

Our boat has a retractable, weighted fin keel that allows us to go from 5'11" draft down to 1'10" (with keel and rudder retracted), but normally she is sailed with everything down until we come into a shallow anchorage or negotiate a "shortcut".

What really makes the difference worth it is that we can keep the boat at our shallow water dock, yet we can sail to weather better than most. In our area in southeastern New England, weatherliness matters when you are heading west against the typically southwesterly breeze.

Well, we were beating from Cuttyhunk to Mystic (about 50 nm) several years ago when we passed a larger Island Packet that was motoring in the same direction. The IP skipper saw us, unfurled his sails, and took up the challenge. Unfortunately, he could not point as high and soon enough had to come about, unable to maintain a competitive velocity made good to Watch Hill Passage. He rolled up his sails and continued to motor. The difference was primarily the keel (full vs. my fin) and the fact that the IPs have outboard shrouds and don't allow sheeting the genoa as close. We made it on the same tack all the way to the Mystic River. My wife--who would rather sail and absolutely hates to motor--stopped bugging me about the IP accommodations after that.

That said, we continued to charter IPs in the Caribbean, where she can enjoy the bigger cabins and larger water tanks (we like our showers at the end of the day). The longest legs we've motored are about 15 miles--she can put up with that. (You really don't want to sail a full keel boat from St. John to Virgin Gorda.)
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  #497  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
We could go for 51 pages.

Agree with Faster that its about compromise and priorities: rarely does a single parameter, like the keel, decide the matter.

My wife was enamored of the Island Packets we have chartered from Florida to the Caribbean for quite a while. She liked the roomy cabins in particular and the large galley and all the storage. Our own boat, by comparison, has a narrow cabin and wide side decks and a keel trunk that splits the main cabin and runs all the way to the coachroof. Our storage is probably a third that of an IP of the same length (35').

Our boat has a retractable, weighted fin keel that allows us to go from 5'11" draft down to 1'10" (with keel and rudder retracted), but normally she is sailed with everything down until we come into a shallow anchorage or negotiate a "shortcut".

What really makes the difference worth it is that we can keep the boat at our shallow water dock, yet we can sail to weather better than most. In our area in southeastern New England, weatherliness matters when you are heading west against the typically southwesterly breeze.

Well, we were beating from Cuttyhunk to Mystic (about 50 nm) several years ago when we passed a larger Island Packet that was motoring in the same direction. The IP skipper saw us, unfurled his sails, and took up the challenge. Unfortunately, he could not point as high and soon enough had to come about, unable to maintain a competitive velocity made good to Watch Hill Passage. He rolled up his sails and continued to motor. The difference was primarily the keel (full vs. my fin) and the fact that the IPs have outboard shrouds and don't allow sheeting the genoa as close. We made it on the same tack all the way to the Mystic River. My wife--who would rather sail and absolutely hates to motor--stopped bugging me about the IP accommodations after that.

That said, we continued to charter IPs in the Caribbean, where she can enjoy the bigger cabins and larger water tanks (we like our showers at the end of the day). The longest legs we've motored are about 15 miles--she can put up with that. (You really don't want to sail a full keel boat from St. John to Virgin Gorda.)
Is it a secret what kind of boat you have?
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  #498  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
Is it a secret what kind of boat you have?
Not a secret, it is listed on his profile.
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  #499  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
What really makes the difference worth it is that we can keep the boat at our shallow water dock, yet we can sail to weather better than most. In our area in southeastern New England, weatherliness matters when you are heading west against the typically southwesterly breeze.
Apparently you put a high priority on only performance and shallow water capability. Not sure many including your wife likes the extremely restrictive cabin space of your boat.

We would find it unacceptable. Faced with the same choice, I might look at a cat or A seaward yacht. Or better yet.. Dock it elsewhere and get a boat your wife likes.

On the other hand, I am having trouble following your comparison to an IP. You compare it based on only performance. Let's put your boat and that big IP in tropical storm weather And see which one you prefer to be on.

Better yet.. Let's ask your wife..
Bryce
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  #500  
Old 10-01-2012
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Re: Full or fin keel?

One of the LAST boats I would want to be on is an IP in higher winds......but that is me.

My wife would also prefer one a bit less cramped than what we have. BUT, even a full keeler would not have a lot more room. I was on boar an Eric jr awhile back. Half the room of my boat, with the same length etc. Not sure it would do any better in a blow either.

As said, one needs to decide WHICH keel will work best for that persons circumstances. Be it a fin, full, something in the middle, or for that matter, a CB style! Along with for kicks and giggles, lets throw in a canting keel with dagger boards! ie a V70 or equal style boat! Schock built a 40' canter for awhile.......you could probably still get one if you really wanted it!

At the end of the day, choose based on where you are going, how you wish to sail etc. For me, it would not be a full keel, not matter where I was going! IF I needed shoal draft, I would go with a CB or lifting keel of some sort. then put it down in deeper water for the additional pointing etc they offer over full keels. Then an appropriate hull form which is probably more important for comfort etc. than keel shape or form.

Marty
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