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  #601  
Old 03-01-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Outbund I have owned a boat that today would have 86 years and whose design come from centuries ago. I understand the pleasures of vintage boats and the pleasure of sailing them. But those pleasures have nothing to do with the pleasures of sailing in a better sailboat, in a sense it just sails better, rather with the pleasure of simple things and enjoying the sailing as it was done for centuries, in a very simple way.

For truly enjoying that pleasure, the pleasure of simple things and to be in accordance with the boat one should sail with the minimum necessary, that is a Compass, a sighting compass and binoculars and preferably with just a small outboard or if one is good enough, without an engine at all.

I understand well those pleasures because I lived them.

But if one wants to cruise in the summer several thousands of miles (there are so many things to see, so many places to be) and want to do it sailing the best is to have a boat that can sails easily to 7.5K and that in good conditions can go at 8/10K, a boat that needs only 4K wind to make an acceptable speed and use a plotter, a radar and all the good stuff that fits well with that kind of boat.

For that it is better a modern boat, that in some cases it can even look a classic but has a modern under-body, for instance one like this:



Different pleasures, different boats and sometime the same people enjoying both.
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Last edited by PCP; 03-01-2013 at 12:35 AM.
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  #602  
Old 03-01-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
so at the end of the day it's

Whatever floats your boat ( grin).


Still think the Wolf is right there are special boats that are drawn in every vintage where the magic of balancing performance,comfort, beauty and safety are achieved. Unfortunately you generally don't know if you have such a vessel until you have owned it for some time and have put through all it's paces. At that point Paulo is looking at the next major advance.
Yes but time and money are in the game. It would be nice to get it right on the first try. The magic balance. The main use of a boat rules the day. I say once agian I like this thread. I will have to make a choice some day. Good day, Lou
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  #603  
Old 03-01-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
Yes but time and money are in the game. It would be nice to get it right on the first try. The magic balance. The main use of a boat rules the day. I say once agian I like this thread. I will have to make a choice some day. Good day, Lou
Yes, but in what regards an old used boat the the type of keel may have not a big play on that choice. it is more important the type of boat you want (and that may not necessarily have to do with the keel unless it is a shallow draft center-boarder). There are some old keel boats that are faster and point better than some fin keel boats. It all depends on the money you have and the choices and deals you can find.

First you have to see what is your budget and then you need to see how and for what you are going to use the boat, in what waters (swallow waters, protected waters, coastal, offshore occasionally, extensively offshore), for how many people, to live aboard or to cruise in the summer and with that criteria there are here guys that know very well the American used boat market and that can point you on the right direction regarding the boats you should look for and I don't think the type keel would have a big relevance.

Trying to know if it is going to be a fin keel, a modified fin keel or a full keel is starting on the wrong end of your search, in what regards a considerably old used sailboat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-01-2013 at 10:28 AM.
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  #604  
Old 03-01-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
Yes but time and money are in the game. It would be nice to get it right on the first try. The magic balance. The main use of a boat rules the day. I say once agian I like this thread. I will have to make a choice some day. Good day, Lou
I did get it right the first try, as far as money purcase price was $17,500...the boat was strip plank finished with fiberglass (later replace with fiberglass using epoxy resin)...so I don't have any of the problems related to wood boats. Previous owners (as well as the designer) knew what they were doing so the rig was tweaked for performance. My life's knowledge of sailing has helped me to tweak it more. Even though I have been sailing all my life, this is my first boat I didn't have much money and didn't look around much.....just stumbled into it and got it right the first time.
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  #605  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

A lot of very complex answers to a very simple question. Fin keels that are bolted on can fall off or be knocked part way off and leak. Full keels and encapsulated keels with rudders behind skegs will make better long range criusers. Will be better @ bouncing in & out of unfamiliar gunk holes. If you want to beat me there however go for the fin. I'll eventually show up with a pump for you.
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  #606  
Old 03-01-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Thanks once more for the advice. I can see you need to know what the plan of use is before you can buy the right boat.
For now I have the right boats for me. The FJ was a step up from the sunfish It will still get in the small shallow lakes two meters 6-feet deep 1/2 hour away. Two lakes close by I can go after work. The other boat is a swing keel Catalina-22 I can take it to the (big lake) two hours away. I can spend the night and dream about fin vs full keel. Like many in the USA. I dream of the Keys and the Virgin Islands, This means a gunk hole boat. Then with more know how we will have to see if we want to go on a voyage.
First I need to learn to sail proficiently and navigate. Right here inland in Ky sailing is a challenge. Learning about boats is a lot of fun. Good day, Lou
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  #607  
Old 03-02-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Comments are interesting
Dory mate- My new boat has a 6 1/2' high aspect fin keel. It is laid up as part of the hull. Bottom is filled with lead. Then two formed pieces of lead are through bolted through the fin and in to each other at the bottom. Then the entire bulb is heavily glassed over. The structure is further supported by a grid inside the hull. In short going at hull speed or above given how overbuilt the keel and hull are IT AIN"T GOING ANYWHERE. The bow may go under water and I may go flying but I'm not worried about the keel falling off. Similarly the balanced spade rudder aint going anywhere. Massively over built.I've seen alot of boats where the rudder was holding the skeg on.Or the shoe bearing on a full keel boat was just for looks. A lot of the old saws are ridiculous. A poorly made boat is poorly made and the contrapositve is equally true. Full keel / fin keel has nothing to do with it. I previously had a full keel boat. Made in China. Given the way the KEELBOLTS were done on that boat I did worry and ended up re working them. Have been on encapsulated ballast boats where the ballast was working inside the cavity. Scared the crap out of me. Had no sleep and blue eyes by the end of that trip.

Paulo-Friend owns a company that sells high performance multihulls. To get my wife into cruising wanted her to see you could get there fast. She was a liveaboard on a motorboat as a child for awhile. I thought she would not like life on a slant or island time. He gave me a tri for a week.First day pulled up the rags. Rgging was singing so loud is was hard to talk even yelling and the tiller was buzzing into your hand as the high speed cause rudder cavitation to make it necessary to switch hands as they got numb. Trimmed her up and approached warp speed. I had a big grin but she started to cry. Sailed the rest of the week with just the main and rarely a scrap of jib for balance.

Have come to believe there is a comfort to be one step behind cutting edge. There's a reason sailors in general and people like me spending their kids inheritance are conservative. There's a reason the recent multiple million dollar one offs coming out of Maine and North Carolina have single rudders. One is even a ketch.
Boreal makes a great boat. When it came down to 3 boats it was in the mix. Couldn't get past having the anchor chain in the middle of the boat. Decided I rather have all my fuel and water there to improve gyradius and not have the stink and clink. Could not get past the European galley. (Although he has redone that since.) Didn't want to attend to electrolysis in the harbors I frequent where stray current is a given. Gotten to an age where it still upsets me to see a boat sailed poorly but want a boat that's easy to sail well. Broad light boat made of unobtainium sails on top of the water not in it. Sure it's fast (p.s.- my boat is no slow poke) but how are you going to feel about it 10-15 years down the road. Hope to stick around and see how it goes.

sorry about venting at such great length. Boy did it feel good
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Last edited by outbound; 03-02-2013 at 01:11 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #608  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorymate1 View Post
... Fin keels that are bolted on can fall off or be knocked part way off and leak..... If you want to beat me there however go for the fin. I'll eventually show up with a pump for you.
Jesus
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  #609  
Old 03-02-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
..
Paulo-Friend owns a company that sells high performance multihulls. To get my wife into cruising wanted her to see you could get there fast. She was a liveaboard on a motorboat as a child for awhile. I thought she would not like life on a slant or island time. He gave me a tri for a week.First day pulled up the rags. Rgging was singing so loud is was hard to talk even yelling and the tiller was buzzing into your hand as the high speed cause rudder cavitation to make it necessary to switch hands as they got numb. Trimmed her up and approached warp speed. I had a big grin but she started to cry. Sailed the rest of the week with just the main and rarely a scrap of jib for balance.

Have come to believe there is a comfort to be one step behind cutting edge. There's a reason sailors in general and people like me spending their kids inheritance are conservative. There's a reason the recent multiple million dollar one offs coming out of Maine and North Carolina have single rudders. One is even a ketch.
Boreal makes a great boat. When it came down to 3 boats it was in the mix. Couldn't get past having the anchor chain in the middle of the boat. Decided I rather have all my fuel and water there to improve gyradius and not have the stink and clink. Could not get past the European galley. (Although he has redone that since.) Didn't want to attend to electrolysis in the harbors I frequent where stray current is a given. Gotten to an age where it still upsets me to see a boat sailed poorly but want a boat that's easy to sail well. Broad light boat made of unobtainium sails on top of the water not in it. Sure it's fast (p.s.- my boat is no slow poke) but how are you going to feel about it 10-15 years down the road. Hope to stick around and see how it goes.

sorry about venting at such great length. Boy did it feel good
Regarding fast Trimarans comparing with monohulls, they have less interior space but they are way faster. Comfort on a boat is most of the time a function of speed. As a 70 year older trimaran sailor said to a friend of mine regarding comfort: "I can go slower but you cannot go faster". It is all related about what you want on a sailboat and the importance that was to you sailing fun. You said that you were grinning while sailing the tri: That's about that and be able to cruise while grinning

Regarding that story about holding the tiller, cruising trimarans and even solo racing ones are designed to go on autopilot as any other boat and will have no problem with that. They are very stable on a course.

Regarding aluminium boats and electrolysis that only happens to boats made by amateurs that don't understand the specific needs of the boat electrical set up. The French have thousands of shipyard made Aluminium boats (for 40 years long) and have no problems with that.

Regarding rudders and big yachts. I would say that sailboat design is more advanced in Europe than in the US, if we forget about Farr that is not an American. Given an example how US boats are made in what regards something that is a recent development is not relevant. Here many big yachts are already made with twin rudders and more will come. They offer a lot of advantages, mechanical, regarding efficiency and improved safety. I have no doubt that they come to stay and you are going to see an increase of use in mass produced boats.

Regards

Paulo
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  #610  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paolo- I have every respect for you and your knowledge base. There is not a piece of Dacron in any of my sails( except the trysail and stormjib). All my running rigging is "no stretch". My blocks are soft shackles. But that doesn't mean I would ever want a boat with hard sails and a hinge in the middle or that goes so fast a windvane won't work on it or with appendages so prone to picking up all the junk now in our oceans that I take comfort in having another one. I can live with 6'6" and don't want a Swan/Baltic with it's keel on hydralics. Neither do I want a monhull or multihull whose perfomance will be ruined by the extra weight in stuff we collect when cruising. I like carrying the extra water/fuel/central heat/air/washerdryer/third anchor and rode/spares for everything etc.Similarly a boat made of exotics then baked in a huge oven doesn't interest me. I want a boat any decent yard can maintain and fix. Not just a few at great expense. I'm not a Luddite but know sooner or later I or my crew will be inattentive or something will break (rudder sensor on the Autopilot, lighting and all electronics go down etc.) or GIRBs will be misread. Then I want a boat that will accommendate our human frailities and stupidity and still get me to a safe harbor. I also know Bill Crealock was right. The pleasure of the voyage should at least equal the pleasure of the arrival. There's a point where you are right physically but wrong metaphysically- the boat goes faster- but at what cost to the wallet, time in maintenance, experience of comfort, complexity of systems and sense of safety. Thank you- I'll stay in the front of the pack but too often the pace settor doesn't win the race.
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Last edited by outbound; 03-02-2013 at 10:44 AM.
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