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  #611  
Old 03-02-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paolo- I have every respect for you and your knowledge base. There is not a piece of Dacron in any of my sails( except the trysail and stormjib). All my running rigging is "no stretch". My blocks are soft shackles. But that doesn't mean I would ever want a boat with hard sails and a hinge in the middle or that goes so fast a windvane won't work on it or with appendages so prone to picking up all the junk now in our oceans that I take comfort in having another one. I can live with 6'6" and don't want a Swan/Baltic with it's keel on hydralics. Neither do I want a monhull or multihull whose perfomance will be ruined by the extra weight in stuff we collect when cruising. I like carrying the extra water/fuel/central heat/air/washerdryer/third anchor and rode/spares for everything etc.Similarly a boat made of exotics then baked in a huge oven doesn't interest me. I want a boat any decent yard can maintain and fix. Not just a few at great expense. I'm not a Luddite but know sooner or later I or my crew will be inattentive and something will break (rudder sensor on the Autopilot, lighting and all electronics go down etc.) or GIRBs will be misread. Then I want a boat that will accommendate our human frailities and stupidity and still get me to a safe harbor. I also know Bill Crealock was right. The pleasure of the voyage should at least equal the pleasure of the arrival. There's a point where you are right physically but wrong metaphysically- the boat goes faster- but at what cost to the wallet, time in maintenance, experience of comfort, complexity of systems and sense of safety. Thank you- I'll stay in the front of the pack but too often the pace settor doesn't win the race.
Well, as I said, different boats for different sailors. For instance, I, that actually sail about 100 days a year on a sunny climate, don't want any laminated sails, that means I have to live with them (that's what I have in my boat now) but as soon as I can get I would change to top woven sails and that means high quality dracon.

That does not mean that laminated sails are not good for cruising, even sailing 100 days a year in the sun. They certainly provide a better performance and if one can change them each 2 years they would be very appropriated. That is not my case. I need sails that last at least 6 years on those conditions and that means dracon sails. If I had the extra money for more expensive sails and to change them each 2 years, I would take a different option. Each case is a case and what is god for one may not be to another.

You seem to make the assumption that modern boats are less safer than older boats and even if each case is a case, globally it is quite the contrary.What is certainly true is that modern boats are faster and sail better than old boats, so I quite don't get your point. It seems that you consider all modern boats as radical and race boats.

They are for all tastes and the good ones in each "taste" represents the state of the art in what regards design and sailing ability. For instance the twin rudders and chines (the way they are used) are an innovation that comes from racing research but all boats can benefit with that and today many cruisers, including voyage boats have them. That just makes them better sailboats without any other disadvantage and in the case of the rudders with further mechanical and safety advantages. Same thing with the transom design and beam being pulled aft. They increase boat control downwind and therefore make the boats safer and more easy to go downwind on autopilot.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-02-2013 at 10:08 AM.
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  #612  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Out bound sounds like your keel is on there. But suggest you walk around those New England yards and see just how many of those fin keels are jammed up into the hull @ the trailing edge.
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  #613  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Dory- once again it depends on the quality of the initial construction. Suggest you look at the construction of many modern boats. Paolo is right -they have learned with time. When the expense is paid in design time, materials and labor modern boats are stronger and safer then ill constructed older vessels. I see you work in a very distinguished yard. Think about the boats you have seen fail. Suspect most are coastal crusiers that would not meet the CE A classification the boats have that Paolo is talking about. Even with CE A there are poorly engineered boats. ?Have you seen any Morris, Passport, HR, Nautor, Hlylas, Baltic,Rustler, Outbound, Malo, etc. where that's happened?
Paulo- My point which you yourself said in this and other threads is
In the quest for speed monohulls have gotten broader , lighter and deeper. As this trend continues it is more dificult to find an ultra modern boat that is not unduelly sensitive to weight brought on board, pleasant to sail and live on and easy to maintain. You are right beyond comfort quoients and other parameters at a certain point speed becomes the enemy of the total experience for the cruiser. As the N.A.s move forward that speed point becomes greater but there is a point where the trade off is unacceptable to most cruisers.. I could ride a Duc or Benelli but rather ride a WIng. I go much further in a day. The crouch rockets are faster and have orders of magnitude greater technology ( slipper cutches, ultra ligh billet and components) than the Goldwing. I could ride a Harley but rather ride a Wing. I'm not a luddite ad realize simple physics says a water cooled engine can outperform an aircooled one just like fin does better than full when done right. I like to have breakfast in one state lunch in another dinner in a third and still have the energy to snuggle the wife that night. That's my point. There is a segment of the cruising public where the latest and greatest just doesn't make sense for how they use their boats neither do old school designs.. The offerings for the segment of long term cruisers has gotten smaller and way more expensive.
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Last edited by outbound; 03-02-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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  #614  
Old 03-02-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

OK, dumb question, but it won't be my first or last... is a winged keel, and fin keel one in the same?
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  #615  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by dorymate1 View Post
Out bound sounds like your keel is on there. But suggest you walk around those New England yards and see just how many of those fin keels are jammed up into the hull @ the trailing edge.
Do you have any evidence that the loss of the keel is a problem on the boats that use fin keels, even mass production ones?

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Tranquilo View Post
OK, dumb question, but it won't be my first or last... is a winged keel, and fin keel one in the same?
In the way they are attached to the hull yes. We can say that a winged keel is a modified fin keel.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Another consideration might be a centerboarder, which is typically a hybrid, in effect.

Open water isn't a concern, but there are places where you might appreciate shallower draft than a traditional fin keel may offer.

I would also second the motion by Faster that maneuverability in tight quarters is a drawback for the full or modified full keel boats. I've had plenty of experience with charters in this regard--mostly with Island Packets (modified full keel), but also with Beneteaus, Jenneaus, Wasquiez, Sabre in the fin keel genre.

My own boat is a swing keel (fin) that is very maneuverable when the keel is down in close quarters. With an elliptical keel (not a high aspect ratio fin) my boat does well on all points of sail and is particularly weatherly. My boat is also a lot more fun to sail than a full keel boat because of its weatherliness and responsiveness.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Believe the properly designed centerboarder is a joy. Another way to adjust point of lateral resistance and of reducng draft at will are blessings. Still even with well executed designs have had some bad experiences. Irregular noise as the boat rolls in quartering seas on a trip back from Bermuda kept the crew from sleeping soundly ( Boat was a Hinckley). Jammed from gravel some how while crossing from Southwest Harbor to P town (boat was a Seguin if I remember - still don't understand how that happened - boat was nowheres near shoal water at anytime-was told needed a haul to clear). Regardless of how well done it's difficult to get a elliptical keel to have as effective hydrodynamics as a dedicated fin ( chord will vary as deployed and usually low aspect) and of course a bulb is a more effective lever arm than even a weighted board and internal ballast. Paulo mentions the Boreal and course there are the Southerlies and Ovnis making good use of this technique at present. Never had the pleasure of owning one but sure have had frustating days helping friends maintain them and their trunk/pendant and pin.Wish you joy of her Faster. Agree your decision is a excellent one on the east coast but looking at noon to noons thought to go a different way.
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Last edited by outbound; 03-02-2013 at 02:34 PM. Reason: misspelled PaUlo's name again - sorry ( grni)
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo mentions the Boreal and course there are the Southerlies and Ovnis making good use of this technique at present...
Southerlies are different. They don't have all the ballast on the swing keel but have a lot of ballast on it.

An then you have the most recent evolution, boats with a swing keel that can go till 3.0m with all the ballast on the keel. These ones have the advantages of boats with fin ballasted keels and the advantages of centerboarders. There are two members with two of these (fast) cruising boats, one with a Pogo 12,50 other with a Wauquiez Opium 39, both very satisfied with their boats, and it seems to me that more are inclined that way.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by fallard View Post
.....
My own boat is a swing keel (fin) that is very maneuverable when the keel is down in close quarters. With an elliptical keel (not a high aspect ratio fin) my boat does well on all points of sail and is particularly weatherly. My boat is also a lot more fun to sail than a full keel boat because of its weatherliness and responsiveness.

fallard, I see you've got a Clearwater... always liked that boat/concept. That's actually 2 SNers (CapnRon47? I think) with that boat - kinda neat because they're not that common.


Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Believe the properly designed centerboarder is a joy. Another way to adjust point of lateral resistance and of reducng draft at will are blessings.......
Interesting, though, that ErikLYC, a new owner of a brand new centerboard boat, tells us his keel is only usable/structurally stable in the fully deployed position, which takes away that 'adjustable CLR' feature.

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.Wish you joy of her Faster. .
Thanks but that's not me!!
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