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  #621  
Old 03-02-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Tranquilo View Post
OK, dumb question, but it won't be my first or last... is a winged keel, and fin keel one in the same?
No they are not the same. A wing keel is a type of bulb which minimally is supposed to act as a end plate and in extreme cases work as a wing when the boat is heeled. By traditional definition. A fin keel is any keel with a bottom less than 50% less than the length of the boat . In more modern usage, it's a keel in which does not have an attached rudder.
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  #622  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Some brief comments on the Contessa 32 since it has come up. Yes in effect the keel is in between, it has a skeg hung rudder and overhangs. It is an excellent sea boat, and sails well. It likes a bit of heel and can throw up a bit of spray which is easily overcome by a couple of strakes or rubbing rail on the bow.
It is relatively narrow so is less fast downwind than one with the beam carried aft but is more stable. The downside is less internal volume so one sure would not be trying to fit 6 in more like 2 or 3 max on a passage. However that is true for most boats of that length, particularly when you think of storage extra sails etc.
Being relatively narrow plus having easily accessible handholds makes it safer in a seaway versus being tossed from side to side.
It might be said to be a bit harder to dock than a fin keel but with a bit of practice it is not difficult.
A number of factors interact in choosing a boat, money, comfort, crew numbers, prevailing weather, ease of handling, intended use. Personally I rank the security of having a good sea boat highly. Sure it has to sail well but speed for a non-racer is not the dominant factor.
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Old 03-02-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

OK. Good stuff given so far. One point to keep in mind; if you decide to go with a fin keel I suggest you do NOT get a wing keel, just to get a more shallow draft. Since you will run aground at some point in time, the wing keel severely limits your options on getting yourself back afloat. (Yes, I have wing keel now, haven't been in trouble, but would not again get a boat with such a keel). The comments about the manoeuvrability of a fin keel in close quarters, compared to full keel, are not to be ignored. You'll thing of them whenever you visiting a marina (which will be unknown territory in many cases) - both when coming in (forward, let's assume) and leaving (backing out).

Best of luck with your eventual purchase!
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Fallard I deeply apologize to you and Faster. Think neither should be confused with each other but neither should hopefully be offended when an slow witted dyslexic like me does it.
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  #625  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
...

Interesting, though, that ErikLYC, a new owner of a brand new centerboard boat, tells us his keel is only usable/structurally stable in the fully deployed position, which takes away that 'adjustable CLR' feature.
That is because Eric's boat is a Pogo 12.50, one of those that has a swing keel with all the ballast on the keel.

That creates different problems than on non ballast centerboard in what regards lateral forces. The keel has to be on the proper place to not move latterly face to the big forces on the head of the keel when the boat is heeled.

Eric also says that once in place even with waves and bad weather the keel does not have any movement. I guess that would not be possible with the keel half way, without being locked in the place.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-02-2013 at 05:14 PM.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Believe the properly designed centerboarder is a joy. Another way to adjust point of lateral resistance and of reducng draft at will are blessings. Still even with well executed designs have had some bad experiences. Irregular noise as the boat rolls in quartering seas on a trip back from Bermuda kept the crew from sleeping soundly ( Boat was a Hinckley). Jammed from gravel some how while crossing from Southwest Harbor to P town (boat was a Seguin if I remember - still don't understand how that happened - boat was nowheres near shoal water at anytime-was told needed a haul to clear). Regardless of how well done it's difficult to get a elliptical keel to have as effective hydrodynamics as a dedicated fin ( chord will vary as deployed and usually low aspect) and of course a bulb is a more effective lever arm than even a weighted board and internal ballast. Paulo mentions the Boreal and course there are the Southerlies and Ovnis making good use of this technique at present. Never had the pleasure of owning one but sure have had frustating days helping friends maintain them and their trunk/pendant and pin.Wish you joy of her Faster. Agree your decision is a excellent one on the east coast but looking at noon to noons thought to go a different way.
Several comments:

1. The Sequin 40 (if that's what is was) was designed by Craig Walters and looks like a bigger version of my Clearwater 35, also a Walters design. The Clearwater 35 has 2500# of lead ballast inside the leading edge of the NACA shaped keel, according to Barrett Holby, the builder. (An additional 2500# of lead is glassed into the rather slack bilge.) i would estimate that my swing keel is pushing 3000#. It's hard to imagine jamming the keel in its trunk due to gravel or mud, as can be the case with a conventional centerboard. I am assuming the Sequin 40 has a larger version of my ballasted keel, so its hard to imagine jamming it.

2. The Sequin 40 and Clearwater 35 are not true centerboarders. the bottom is whaleback-shaped and there is no stub keel , which allows them to be beached like a Southerly. The lack of a keel means my draft is 1' 10" with everything up (including the rudder). You could sail my boat like a centerboarder by varying the amount of keel down, but that leaves the trunk slot open and would produce turbulent flow. When the keel is all the way down, the trunk slot is closed. If I am in deep enough water, and can live with a 5' 11" draft, I leave the keel all the way down. BTW, the PHRF rater had my displacement at 12,500#, despite what the spec sheet below says.



3. The elliptical keel is a compromise. Aside from the difference in waterline length, some folks compared the Clearwater 35 (on paper) to the J-35, which has a more hydrodynamically-efficient fin keel. When the PHRF folks got through and there was an opportunity to compare them on the water, it was quite clear that the fin keel made for a faster boat--that and a ton less weight, longer LWL, and 20% more sail area for the J-35.

4. My offshore experience is limited, but we made the 600 mi. from Ft. Pierce, FL, to Beaufort, NC, in 72 hours, sailing all the way until within sight of Emerald Isle, when the wind died down. We went offshore to get the Gulf Stream boost, but that's still good time, and the boat motion was easy. So, I don't think our speed compared to LWL needs any excuses. Also, we won our very first race (cruising category) in a field of 13 or so other boats, including a Cardinal 46 that has participated in the Newport Bermuda race. We won it in actual as well as corrected time, perhaps because we outpointed every boat in the fleet when it mattered. Unfortunately our racing career went downhill after that!

5. Our maintenance issues with the swing keel have been minimal. We replaced the 1.5" dia, pin after noticing pitting corrosion at the seals. The original appeared to be 304 SS, whereas the replacement is 316 SS and is going on 13 years with no problems. I've replaced the nylon pennant once, on a precautionary basis. The retractable rudder was more troublesome until we replaced the original aluminum rudder trunk with a composite structure to eliminate binding. Overall, maintaining this retractable system has not been much of a problem once we fixed the items mentioned.

One last comment, another keel type to consider is the retractable, weighted daggerboard that is used in the Hake designs. You've got an efficient foil shape, ballast bulb to keep the CG low, and you also have shallow draft when you need it.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Fallard I deeply apologize to you and Faster. Think neither should be confused with each other but neither should hopefully be offended when an slow witted dyslexic like me does it.
outbound: Absolutely no offense taken. Faster seems like a cool guy, so the confusion is actually flattering.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Fallard- beautiful vessel. You're obviously right. My memories of events 25+ years ago are faulty. Boy getting to apologize alot to you today.Didn't some of Hoods play the same trick. Using both the canoe body and centerboard in harmony to achieve weatherliness and with slack bilges a very pleasant motion.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by fallard View Post
outbound: Absolutely no offense taken. Faster seems like a cool guy, so the confusion is actually flattering.
Ditto, and back at you fallard!
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Fallard- beautiful vessel. You're obviously right. My memories of events 25+ years ago are faulty. Boy getting to apologize alot to you today.Didn't some of Hoods play the same trick. Using both the canoe body and centerboard in harmony to achieve weatherliness and with slack bilges a very pleasant motion.
One of the candidates when I was searching for a boat in the '95 timeframe was the Bristol 35.5, a Ted Hood Design. I had actually sailed one during a 5 day 'guys' cruise in the Great Lakes. The 35.5 is heavier than my Clearwater by over a ton, but has sail area proportional to displacement and has almost the same beam. However, it has a fairly effective, shallow, modified full keel and can be sailed without the centerboard down, except for beating, if you want to be lazy. It's a solid boat, but the pennant system for the CB is "interesting"--not nearly as straightforward as you'd like. The shallow keel requires twice as much water as my Clearwater and, consequently, the 35.5 would not do well to stay at my shallow water dock (~4' draft and 2.5' at MLW).

The one feature feature that does stand out is how tender the 35.5 is compared to my Clearwater. My boat obviously has more form stability and may have been fairly well-designed to achieve a weight discipline in that regard. As the admiral says, heeling over much more than 15 degrees isn't making us go any faster. I recollect that the 35.5 would be at 20 degrees before reaching that point, which makes it harder to move our senior bones around.

That said, if my Clearwater (the last 35 built) hadn't become available I might be sailing a Bristol something or other designed by Hood.
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