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  #631  
Old 03-02-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paolo- I have every respect for you and your knowledge base. There is not a piece of Dacron in any of my sails( except the trysail and stormjib). All my running rigging is "no stretch". My blocks are soft shackles. But that doesn't mean I would ever want a boat with hard sails and a hinge in the middle or that goes so fast a windvane won't work on it or with appendages so prone to picking up all the junk now in our oceans that I take comfort in having another one. I can live with 6'6" and don't want a Swan/Baltic with it's keel on hydralics. Neither do I want a monhull or multihull whose perfomance will be ruined by the extra weight in stuff we collect when cruising. I like carrying the extra water/fuel/central heat/air/washerdryer/third anchor and rode/spares for everything etc.Similarly a boat made of exotics then baked in a huge oven doesn't interest me. I want a boat any decent yard can maintain and fix. Not just a few at great expense. I'm not a Luddite but know sooner or later I or my crew will be inattentive or something will break (rudder sensor on the Autopilot, lighting and all electronics go down etc.) or GIRBs will be misread. Then I want a boat that will accommendate our human frailities and stupidity and still get me to a safe harbor. I also know Bill Crealock was right. The pleasure of the voyage should at least equal the pleasure of the arrival. There's a point where you are right physically but wrong metaphysically- the boat goes faster- but at what cost to the wallet, time in maintenance, experience of comfort, complexity of systems and sense of safety. Thank you- I'll stay in the front of the pack but too often the pace settor doesn't win the race.
The boat I have has a very flexible 47' 3-piece laminated Sitka Spruce mast with a low tension rig, using relatively stretchy 1/4" 7x19 wire(6 shrouds, 3 stays and running backs)....this allows for significant mast bend and sail shape adjustment (designed this way 75 years ago)......if I put rod rigging and hard sails on her it would break the boat.
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  #632  
Old 03-02-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Another keel that always appealed to me was the work of Henry Scheel. I think best put to use on the Cheribini s. Narrow as a knife. 44- a ketch 48 -a stays'l schooner but both full keelers could go to weather like a witch.Well past hull speed. Looks to be a wet boat - but never sailed one so don't know. Bet she would have a solid ride. Put together right and drop dead gorgeous. There were two 44's in my prior harbor(Marion). Would stop even a speedfreak's heart to see them zipping around Buzzards Bay. Believe one of Lee Cheribini's descendents still builds them at the same yard in N.J. Now all glass ( deck used to be laminated wood).They also built some pretty motorboats. If I had a $1m+ and the bucks to maintaiin one it would be a kick to have one. Small inside but two could live on her.
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  #633  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by chris_gee View Post
Some brief comments on the Contessa 32 since it has come up. Yes in effect the keel is in between, it has a skeg hung rudder and overhangs. It is an excellent sea boat, and sails well. It likes a bit of heel and can throw up a bit of spray which is easily overcome by a couple of strakes or rubbing rail on the bow.
It is relatively narrow so is less fast downwind than one with the beam carried aft but is more stable. The downside is less internal volume so one sure would not be trying to fit 6 in more like 2 or 3 max on a passage. However that is true for most boats of that length, particularly when you think of storage extra sails etc.
Being relatively narrow plus having easily accessible handholds makes it safer in a seaway versus being tossed from side to side.
It might be said to be a bit harder to dock than a fin keel but with a bit of practice it is not difficult.
A number of factors interact in choosing a boat, money, comfort, crew numbers, prevailing weather, ease of handling, intended use. Personally I rank the security of having a good sea boat highly. Sure it has to sail well but speed for a non-racer is not the dominant factor.
I Thank you for the insight. Regards, Lou
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  #634  
Old 03-04-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Ok Wolf and Paulo I am reading some books that I can understand most of the tech stuff I will not pretend I get it all with the stability charts and the sea motion comfort charts Looks good but I am just the average Joe. One book I just is finished is John Vigor : Twenty Small Saliboats to take you anywhere. Reading now Beth Leonard : Voyagers hand book. Next on my list is Lin Pardy, Larry Pardey : Storm Tactics Handbook
What seems to be an issue is heaving to and coming back up if capsized. I have found so far the books look to favor full keels narrow beams ? Fin keels do not look after themself or forgive the sailer that is beyond his endurance limit needing sleep food and warmth ? Does a fin keel need more skill and crew to be safe?
I also took note that most of the boats in said books are boats from the 1960s 70s This thread takes aim at this old vs new but lets review.
This thread is a class room for me.
I will not be a big name racer. My skill is low level but growing as with a lot of new hands. I do think going up wind is very important. I see myself always short on crew members. I will be in a used boat. Like most sailors I would like a boat that is safe, fast comfortable and has a shallow draft at a low cost. The word here will be a compromize.
Your thoughts are read more than once so post away my friends. Thanks you, Lou
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  #635  
Old 03-04-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I don't race, never have never will....I can go very nicely in light air and close to the wind.....but what is important is when the weather gets dicey, I don't find really nasty weather as tireing as with a squirrley light wieght racing (or cruiser/racer that emulates a racer).....don't have to reef as soon (40kt breeze is down right fun).
I grew up on the Chesapeake so don't consider 5' shallow draft....but when I look around a fin keel boats, a couple feet makes a big differance.
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  #636  
Old 03-07-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
What seems to be an issue is heaving to and coming back up if capsized. I have found so far the books look to favor full keels narrow beams ? Fin keels do not look after themself or forgive the sailer that is beyond his endurance limit needing sleep food and warmth ? Does a fin keel need more skill and crew to be safe?
Lou
You bring up three separate issues each of which could be discussed at length.,
1. Heaving-to -- it is relatively easy to heave-to with most boats. The tricky bit is heave-to with little or no forereaching. We heave to from time to time but typically fore-reach at 1 to 1.5 knots which moves us out of the slick that you create by sliding to leeward. The whole idea in the Pardeys' book of using a parachute sea anchor at an acute angle to the bow is to stop the forereaching. We have all that gear and even had it rigged on the cabin sole behind the table on the way from Mauritius to South Africa last year but did not even think about using it. BTW, all that gear is not cheap, for our boat probably close to $2500.
2. Capsize recovery -- Everything being equal (and it rarely is) a narrower boat recovers better than a wider boat. Most full keel boats are narrower, often much narrower, than most fin keel boats and hence should recover more quickly. But, if beam is equal, a fin keel with a bulb should recover better since the righting moment is greater (again everything being equal).
3. Comfort - To my mind, comfort has two parts. One is typical heel angle. I sailed on a friend's Alberg 37 and really did not enjoy it since we were so far over on our ear the whole time. I guess you get used to it but it was not for me. Our Bristol basically rarely heels to 20 degrees even when it is honking. The other consideration is how the boat moves in the waves. Heavier boats tend to move in a more controlled way which I find less tiring.

A final boat about comfort and safety. If you can make a passage in 10 days rather than 12 days that means there are two days when you don't have to worry about safety and comfort.
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  #637  
Old 03-07-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
...
2. Capsize recovery -- Everything being equal (and it rarely is) a narrower boat recovers better than a wider boat. ..
.....
Yes, but everything being equal (and it rarely is) a beamier boat is harder to capsize than a a narrower boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-07-2013 at 03:30 PM.
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  #638  
Old 03-07-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Slocum's boat SPRAY (a beamy boat).....had a "point of vanishing stability" of only 90degrees.....I have a narrow boat, but according to calculations, the point of vanishing stability is pretty extreme...in the other way.
As far as difficulty in capsizing, a wave can capsize just about anything. What is important is how fast (if at all) the boat will come back up.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 03-07-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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  #639  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Slocum's boat SPRAY (a beamy boat).....had a "point of vanishing stability" of only 90degrees.....I have a narrow boat, but according to calculations, the point of vanishing stability is pretty extreme...in the other way.
As far as difficulty in capsizing, a wave can capsize just about anything. What is important is how fast (if at all) the boat will come back up.
Yes, a huge breaking wave can capsize anything but there are a proportionality between beam and the size of a wave needed to capsize a boat. A smaller breaking wave can be enough to capsize a narrow boat but not enough to capsize a beamy boat.

Regarding vanishing stability a beamy boat has not necessarily an AVS worse than a narrow boat. The Avs has nothing to do with beam but with how deep the CG is. Being an old design I don't think your boat will have a very big AVS, I mean it has not a big draft and the weigh is not all on a bulb on the bottom as in a modern boat. There are many modern beamy boats with AVS around 130º but probably that is not more important than the force that they are making to right itself up at 90 0r even 100º. After all it is way more frequent a knock down then a complete roll and at that position the boat is vulnerable: You want it up again as fast as possible. A small wave that hit the boat at that position can capsize the boat.

Regarding what you say it is more important ( "What is important is how fast -if at all- the boat will come back up") I guess that what is more important, providing the boat has an AVS superior to 110º is the proportion between the positive and the negative part of a stability curve. Meaning the proportion that exists between the energy needed to capsize a boat and the energy required to right it up from inverted position. Saying it in another way, the proportion between the size of a wave capable to capsize the boat and the size of a wave capable to re-right the boat again from the inverted position.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-07-2013 at 05:20 PM.
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  #640  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Would offer when it gets really nasty best point of sail maybe dead downwind under barepoles with Jordan series drogue or the like deployed off stern with helm fixed amidships,companionway closed and everyone down below. In this set up even extremely deep draft high aspect bulbed fin keeled boat do just fine. Crew is down below either on sole amidships or in quaterberths ( wherever is most comfy). Lying ahull or heaving to are not believed to be as safe by many authors. Have heaved to to have lunch ( can be done on virtual all fin keel boat if a little forereaching allowed) but do not consider it the ultimate storm tactic. Running with series drogue will work for beamy,narrow,full,fin or just about any boat. With sufficient number of drogue cones sufficient sea room for drift is obtained. Current open transom sugar scoops will shed water quicker in the event of being pooped. Agree it is a faulty thinking to presume a good modern boat is any more uncomfortable or unsafe than old boats derived from Norwegian coast guard double enders and the like. Have owned boats built for single handed trans Atlantic races and very traditional boats. When done right both can be safe and comfy in a seaway. Personally, have chosen a moderate beam, by modern standards somewhat heavy bulbed fin keel boat as my "last boat". It's behavior in all settings comforts me. Others make other decisions and they all may be very correct for how they are going to use the vessel.
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Last edited by outbound; 03-07-2013 at 05:54 PM.
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