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  #651  
Old 03-09-2013
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Thumbs up Re: Full or fin keel?

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Wolf your boat is a magnificant design. No one in their right mind would say otherwise. Both a gas operated semi auto 30.06 and a muzzleloader bring down deer. To an collector/hunter both have appeal. The deer is just as dead so he feels the same about both as well. Still, the physics of the ocean and weather remain the same and folks will always strive to find a better solution to deal with it. You are right as regards many production boats but realize they are aimed at a different segment of the boating public then your boat is and was when it was constructed. Compare apples to apples and for the same segment you refer to there are boats still being made which incorporate the genius of subsequent generations. Some are the equal to your vessel and the audience who buys them probably know what a gem you own.
There are alot of boats in this town that are "historically correct" andor are fine examples of an older style of boat.(down to dead eyes and kerosene running lights)but other than looking pretty for the "wooden boat snobs" (the sort of people that would keep a classic car in a garage under a dust cover and only take it out on sunny days) they suck on just about everything across the board. My boat isn't just a "quaint old boat", the designer, builder and every one of it's owners has made improvements for the purpose of functionality and/or performance with out trying to be "historically correct"....in an e-mail to Pat Atkin about what was done, she responded "Oh, you have a "modified Atkin". Even though it might not be as William Atkin had designed it, he would have approved of the alterations.

The Sharps rifles were made in the mid to late 1800s and were known for long distance accuracy.
The rifles used by the Imperial Russian Army (late 1800s)were also known for accuracy.

Not sure exactly what you would compare mine to (am not up on antique rifles) something that is a bit on the heavy side, but solidly constructed and good performer. Some boats may fall under the category of a blunderbuss...both old and new (like the Island Packet)
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  #652  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

go black power hunting on occassion. Materials used /designs are varied.
Can pick up modern black power gun using synthetic stock, power pre formed in measured cyclinders, pre formed 50cal sabots. - get my deer. Good gun, easy to use, easy to aim,well designed and accuate.
Close friend let me have use of true Tenn. long rifle. ( ancient thing but well kept) Beautifully made but heavy to carry and a little more effort to charge and mantain.. Still good rifle- well designed, easy to aim, and accurate- get my deer.
Which is better?- Not a germaine question. Totally depends on what criteria the answerer brings to his response.
Are there features of the "modern" black power gun that represent advances- Yes.
Is the hex barrel "old" gun a thing of beauty,durability and marvel of function- Yes
Do both work- yes

Are there modern black power weapons that are junk- yes
Are there "old" guns that are junk- yes

Agree merit has nothing to do with age. But intelligent people have looked and thought about our tools- be they boats, guns, cars, or hammers. Not to acknowledge advances is cut yourself off from another source of wonder and enjoyment. Paulo has a running thread which I read often with great enjoyment. But those boats don't meet my needs or aesethesics. I think some of current advances would actually decrease my enjoyment of my boat. However, There have clearly been advances in our undestanding of fluid dynamics, cad/cam programs and computer design have aided our N.A.s . Still think trick is to incorporate current knowledge tempered by real world experience. I went with a 13 y.o. design. I talked with multiple owners back to hull 2 ( I'm hull 50). Boat is "modern". Each one has new "features" as technology advances. Boat is "proven" and not cutting edge. I think boat filled the nitch that Valiant once did. I looked at many V50's before I blew the money on this one. Does that mean the sun shines less strong and wind less on the V50- no. Does that mean the V50 is not something I woul sail accross the pond and think is a great design I would be very proud to own-no. Does that mean the O46 doesn't have many advances incorperated in it's design and execution compared to a V50- no.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
...
Agree merit has nothing to do with age. But intelligent people have looked and thought about our tools- be they boats, guns, cars, or hammers. Not to acknowledge advances is cut yourself off from another source of wonder and enjoyment.

Paulo has a running thread which I read often with great enjoyment. But those boats don't meet my needs or aesethesics. I think some of current advances would actually decrease my enjoyment of my boat. However, There have clearly been advances in our undestanding of fluid dynamics, cad/cam programs and computer design have aided our N.A.s . Still think trick is to incorporate current knowledge tempered by real world experience. ....
I don't understand your point. In my thread I cover all sort of boats, including bluewater and voyage boats. Yes they are modern and represent the best there is on the market and that means the best sailboats available ever, depending for what they are designed for.

Regarding experience, most of the designers of the new generation (well, they are not young anymore) were simultaneously sailors and I don't mean occasional sailors but circumnavigation and solo navigators that made transats, most of the time with boats designed by them. After that they kept sailing but most of all build many boast for others that were doing the same, accumulating experience all the time. Boats like the OVNI are being built over a previous circumnavigation experience and being improved for the last 30 years based in the experience fruit of countless circumnavigations (I know a guy that had done 3 on the same boat) and brought back by clients: Is this not experience enough?

Most shipyards in Europe have produced hundreds, some many thousands of boats, always learning with previous experience, always improving based on solid acquired knowledge: this is not experience enough?

I really don't understand what you mean. The edge technologies you talk about are only edge from a point of view 15 years old. Nobody uses new unproved technologies on cruising boats, they are tested first for many years in racing boats that circumnavigate and cross oceans with a solo sailors in conditions and during a period of time that surpass the live and demands of any cruising boat. Only then are they used on cruising boats and are used because they are better and more efficient materials, extensively tested.

The fact that the designers that use those materials on race boats are the same that years later, if they prove to be a better option, design cruising boats gives an added security in what regards safety from the design point of view: They know exactly what they are doing and are not using cruising boats has a testing ground. Just making better cruising boats based in experience acquired in racing boats with better materials and a more efficient design.

Regards

Paulo
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  #654  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

When I replaced my rigging last spring I asked the local rigging shop for advice and was told. "Hold on a sec....I think within this little box...you are outside this box....I'm sorry I can't help you". I have a fine rig, very efficient, just different....my point being that just because any aspect of a boat doesn't fall with in the tight little "box" that is modern day yachts.....doesn't mean it isn't a good boat. Alot of really kewl stuff has been replaced for the sake of something new....new does not necessarily mean better.

If I were ro get a fin keel I would get a Scanmar 40.....though there were only 20 built about 15 years ago. I worked for the US importer (gave me a chance to get to know the boat and boats from that manufacturer intimately) and at the time they went for $130K....if can find one now they would be located in Europe and cost about £70,000 ($110,000).....A really nice boat though.
Specs: http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=42024&url=

If I had the money I would have a boat built with the same lines as mine but 40-50%bigger, rigged as a schooner w/aft cabin, also strip planked.

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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo- I'm not disagreeing .Think you are picking a fight where no fight exists. Once I decided I wanted a new boat and was willing/able to pay for it short list was a one off making use of many very recent construction and design parameters, the Boreal which some would think is a fast and possibly more forgiving evolution of the ONVI and the Outbound. Think Carl and Phil (had)have considerable real world experience.Still, as you look at boats old or new - you need to decide what makes sense for you. I wanted internal ballast, bulbed fin keel, solid glass hull, excellent turn of speed with safety and comfort in all conditions that would work for 2 as liveaboards. Dragged my wife through countless boatyards,spoke with countless owners and yard workers and saw many boat shows over the course of years.Have 35 years messing with boats. Looked at NA portfolios. Read multiple books about "favorable and unfavorable" features. Tried to educated myself about available contruction materials and techniques Did the due diligence to extent possible. Did research on service life, cost and availability of repair, + efficacy of repair. Decided what I wanted from the old and new. The Outbound will be my boat until I die lord willing. I'm not a European with the resources to buy a new boat every few years. To the extent possible knowing this was going to happen once wanted the comfort of other peoples experiences. I don't buy cars in their first model year either. Want others to work out the bugs. My boat's internior bears some basic resemblance to earlier versions but is quite different. Many coponents are different as Phil dligently learns from what hasn't worked in this design and what new changes will make this vessel the best it can be. You don't get that same evolutionary change with new molds and tooling. You may disagree with my decision or the Wolf's but to assume these decisions are not driven by intelligence and made on the basis of fanciful notions or resistance to change is absurd. PSC has just produced a multimillion buck Ketch with a single rudder-?Is that client unaware of what's out there for design or has he chosen those features old and new which make sense for him. Covey Island still makes makes excellent boats using modern wood construction but Gannon and Benjaman's boats are still coveted. Why do you have trouble understanding I learn from your thread and appreciate the advances but reserve the right to pick and choose what I think makes sense for me. I have a friend who likes Morris. Again old and new features. Some wish for a Shannon- new design but old school strength in no nonsense construction. The PSC, Morris, Shannon, new HR aft cockpits , Outbounds 46/52 are boats being built now. None are twin rudders/ hard chine boats.I understand the logic but it's not for me. To assume the CLIENTS ( not the N.As) don't have real world experience of their limitations ( time, money,physical health, use etc.) and don't know what they want is offensive. I do think that some of the boats on your thread are great boats. But I don't know which ones they are. I do believe I have a great boat.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Paulo- I'm not disagreeing .Think you are picking a fight where no fight exists. ...

I don't buy cars in their first model year either. Want others to work out the bugs. ....

You may disagree with my decision or the Wolf's but to assume these decisions are not driven by intelligence and made on the basis of fanciful notions or resistance to change is absurd. ...

Why do you have trouble understanding I learn from your thread and appreciate the advances but reserve the right to pick and choose what I think makes sense for me. ...

..To assume the CLIENTS ( not the N.As) don't have real world experience of their limitations ( time, money,physical health, use etc.) and don't know what they want is offensive. I do think that some of the boats on your thread are great boats. But I don't know which ones they are. I do believe I have a great boat.
I am not picking a fight with nobody, Wolf's boat is great if we consider the pleasure of owning a classical or traditional boat, in what regards to maintain alive a tradition and all that kind of stuff. I really appreciate that (i even like that) but thinking that in what regards form/function and the ability to perform a given task, in this case coastal cruising with some offshore cruising, a XIX century design is better or close to what can offer a XXI century sailboat designed to perform the same tasks, makes no sense and It is only in what regards that that I don't agree with Wolfe. His boat is beautiful and a great design, it is not his boat that is in question but his thought that all modern boats, even the ones designed for a similar function are functionally worse then their boat, not by a subjective pleasure satisfaction (of owning a museum piece) but in real objective parameters like seaworthiness, speed and interior comfort and space.

Regarding you it is about the same thing, not regarding a centuries old design, but regarding a 15 year's old design regarding new designs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo has a running thread which I read often with great enjoyment. But those boats don't meet my needs ... Still think trick is to incorporate current knowledge tempered by real world experience. ....
and the thought that a 15 year old design can be better than all boats the market was now to offer. I don't mean subjectively (about aesthetics or irrational dislikes) but objectivity in what regards form /function. Whatever the use you do to your boat I am quite sure the market has to offer better simply because 12 or 13 years is a huge time in what regards boat development and design. I don't mean about money or value (regarding a used boat) that is not what is at stake here, just pure performance in the several items.

With cars it is the same. It makes no sense to say that a same type of car was better 12 years ago than it is now. You say you don't buy new cars for having time for the bugs to be found out. I never had a problem with that regarding cars but I can respect that, but then we are talking about you buying the same model with one or two years, not an older model with 12 years. The new model has already suffered probably 3 big stage improvements over the older model and will out perform it in many ways.

I consider the Outbound a great boat. That is not what is in question but you saying that today market has nothing better to offer (for the satisfying the same functions) regarding an almost 15 year's old design.

Regarding NA to be divorced from the client's experience that does not make sense. Clients like you or any other client knows what they want (even if they have different needs and want different types of boats). If a NA does not offer what they want the Shipyards that uses his designs will go Bankrupt.

On the very competitive European market they have to be very attentive to the client needs and fulfill them. Another thing is to consider that a client know more about technology and design than them and the right way to offer the best solution to a given need. In what regards that the Europeans are more humble and don't question the superior knowledge of the Nas, that is based on solid science, technical knowledge of the different materials, extensive experience and the feedback brought back by hundreds, or thousands of boat owners.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo with all due respect I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Our perspectives are different. What I'm saying is there are boats being designed now with basically the same parameters as my boat that do not incorporate the features you skillfully demonstrate concerning canue shape, chines, torpedo bulbs with bulb in part in front of fin etc.Construction techniques and materials are different. But at the end of the day what the owner is able to do, how he/she is going to use the boat and in what environment the boat is used impact on what boat he wants to build. For me a triple track boat increases the odds I'm going to pick up lobster pots or need a diver, solid glass means I can get an excellent repair ( god forbid) most anywhere, weight means more comfort to me and less sensitivity to loading, resale value is secure etc. All I'm saying is what's best for me even in your rational world may not be the "best" by your parameters and I'm writing the check. In your an ideal world you would have the resources to replace your boat annually and make use of all advances. In my world I will pick and choose what advances I want to make use of in view of what makes sense for me. I am not saying they are not advances but do expect Phil to use these molds for years to come as this boat makes sense to me and many others.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I never said "all boats....".actually the opposite, I have continued to point out how people generalize too much. There are those who have "museum piece" boats, which they keep "historically correct" (or at least their interpretation), kept shiny and pretty (and run for cover when anything over 10kts kicks up)....they take them to boat shows sailing on sunny days. My boat was designed 75 years ago, but is not a "museum piece"...the building process included techniques that didn't exist when it was designed (which were improved on later on). The boat was designed as carvel plank, but was built as strip plank, glued and covered with fiberglass (later replaced with fiberglass using epoxy resin), there was alot of lamination and fiberglass work in the construction....not "historically correct". AS well as rig tweaks that differ from the designer's original plan.

As far as the age of the boat.....in SAILNET polls "What age is your boat" 82%+are over 20years old while 4% are 1-4years old. There is no reason to buy a factory new boat.....for the cost you can find something far better and have money left over (A used SWAN costs less than a new Catalina ). Buying a new boat just because you can afford one is a waste of money. Of course what keeps the marine industry alive is people who have more money than they have time and/or sense...people who should spend more of thier time sailing.

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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Paulo with all due respect I guess we will just have to agree to disagree....
Not a problem with that, The world would have no fun if everybody thought the same way

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

A boat is a very individual and personal reflection of who someone is...everything in life is a compromise, it's just more obvious in boats. Back to the thread, fin keels and full keels both have there advantages and there is a boat out there that best reflects your needs, wants and desires. I was able to find a boat that best reflected my personality and sailing plans..blue water capability, grace and performance...my main compromise was space (she is a tight little ship)
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