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  #661  
Old 03-11-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I never said "all boats....".actually the opposite, I have continued to point out how people generalize too much. There are those who have "museum piece" boats, which they keep "historically correct" (or at least their interpretation), kept shiny and pretty (and run for cover when anything over 10kts kicks up)....they take them to boat shows sailing on sunny days. My boat was designed 75 years ago, but is not a "museum piece"...the building process included techniques that didn't exist when it was designed (which were improved on later on). The boat was designed as carvel plank, but was built as strip plank, glued and covered with fiberglass (later replaced with fiberglass using epoxy resin), there was alot of lamination and fiberglass work in the construction....not "historically correct". AS well as rig tweaks that differ from the designer's original plan.
I guess most people don't realise technology goes both ways:

Most visitors do not notice, but of the large list, a few inventions "historically correct museum piece" boats have benefited from include:
* Plastic ropes (looks like hemp but isn't - but lasts 100 times longer in the sun)
* "Canvas look" terylene sails (lasts longer than Egyptian Cotton): A tiny aside here is that I know of only two Tall Ships world-wide using traditional sailcloth and neither of those travel the world.. Go ahead, prove me wrong
* Dyneema rigging (looks like gal wire but is heaps stronger, lighter and easier to maintain)
* Modern paints, glues and varnishes..

..and there are 'old' things once forgotten being rediscovered by the new breed of yacht designers - including square-cut mainsails, bowsprits, plumb bows and the importance of hull balance..
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Last edited by Classic30; 03-11-2013 at 08:31 PM.
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  #662  
Old 03-11-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

There has been more heat than light in the back and forth on this post, but it's still an interesting discussion. I particularly liked that discussion about solid glass vs. cored construction, like solid glass in inherently superior.

I wonder how Boston Whaler ever made it! There have been numerous cases of a "stress skin" hull being properly repaired. I guess if you are going to end up on the rocks you may want to last a few more minutes before you break up?

Most of my boats have had solid glass hulls, but my bigger (35') boat has a balsa-cored hull and has made it for 23 years without a problem. The stiffness of the hull is appreciated--no "oil-canning"--and the resultant weight savings make for part of the reason that the boat has a lively response. I''ve been in some really nasty stuff without a worry that the boat would suffer structurally.

That said, to each his own! If someone wants to buy a new boat, more power to them. That means there may be a bargain for me in the future (if it's a quality boat).
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  #663  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

"Technically" I guess my boat would be composite construction (strip plank glued and covered w/fiberglass using epoxy resin), even though the strip plank was solid enough with out the glass. Strip plank/fiberglass is a nice combination if done as part of the building process. Wood that is glassed over after the fact is inviting disaster. The use of laminates in all the spars made for stronger spars. The only "old fashion" materiel I use is bronze, but that is because of advantages iit has I will not go into.
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  #664  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
I guess most people don't realise technology goes both ways:

Most visitors do not notice, but of the large list, a few inventions "historically correct museum piece" boats have benefited from include:
* Plastic ropes (looks like hemp but isn't - but lasts 100 times longer in the sun)
* "Canvas look" terylene sails (lasts longer than Egyptian Cotton): A tiny aside here is that I know of only two Tall Ships world-wide using traditional sailcloth and neither of those travel the world.. Go ahead, prove me wrong
* Dyneema rigging (looks like gal wire but is heaps stronger, lighter and easier to maintain)
* Modern paints, glues and varnishes..

....
Have a Ford T built in Carbon with am aluminium engine and titanium suspension and it will still be a Ford T. A better one for sure but nothing to do with a modern design, even if those are more modestly built in what regards materials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
.. I particularly liked that discussion about solid glass vs. cored construction, like solid glass in inherently superior.

I wonder how Boston Whaler ever made it! There have been numerous cases of a "stress skin" hull being properly repaired. I guess if you are going to end up on the rocks you may want to last a few more minutes before you break up?

Most of my boats have had solid glass hulls, but my bigger (35') boat has a balsa-cored hull and has made it for 23 years without a problem. The stiffness of the hull is appreciated--no "oil-canning"--and the resultant weight savings make for part of the reason that the boat has a lively response. I''ve been in some really nasty stuff without a worry that the boat would suffer structurally.
Going on with the car analogy: Cars from the 60't 70's amd 80's were much more solid built and heavier. Hit another car without too much speed, or any other thing and you will get probably only a bit of bent tin. Modern cars are incredibly lighter, stiffer by design, waste a lot less fuel and are much faster...but hit another car or a tree and even if it is not at a great speed the car is toast or it will be in need of a big reparation.

Cars and boats are not made to hit things and the advantages of the lighter and stiffer boats will be much more than the ones regarding a slightly superior impact resistance...and even about that I am not sure...I would say that the non cored ones are definitively easy to repair and need less care in what regards making modifications (put screws in it) and that's the main advantage.

The advantages of cored boats are so many that today even conservative builders like HR use cored boats. The vast majority of new non cored boats are like that for price reasons and nothing else.

If you plan to sail in uncharted waters where hitting objects is a big concern than the Aluminium is the material to go and not a non cored fiberglass boat that offer at best only a slight impact resistance but are less stiff and a lot heavier.

Regards

Paulo
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  #665  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Prior Outbounds have had balsa cored decks. Have had bad experiences with balsa in past. Asked decks be divynicell cored. - Done. Pleasure of having a semi custom built the way you want it.
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  #666  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Just read "full or Fin Keel" from end to start. A lot of interesting posts and many of them are great for the debate. I see both sides on fin and full having owned both. I can't wait to talk about the bad things along with the good things of the new boat and I will in time. I think this debate would be far better if everyone talked about what they have found not so good in their boats design. Lets everyone take to the couch and and tell your story to the shrinks about the design problems you see in your boat.

Our last boat a Mason 44, a cut away full keel boat sailed all over the world which made one circumnavigation, two Atlantic crossings and one trip through the pacific..

Things I didn't like about her. Went to weather lousy, would stall at times even when not pointed high going to weather. Why? Just not enough water line and she would hobby horse often when the wrong series of waves went under her. I'm talking 2 to 3 meter waves at lets say at 6 seconds and 60 degree point of sail. It was hard to make head way and easier to heave to or run. But in some situations you have to try and sail into a front. Running the engine under sail helped but did not solve the problem entirely. CCA boats just do not have enough waterline. Still a great offshore boat.

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  #667  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Still disappointed you can't get a boat like a cheribini for under a MILLION bucks. Understand narrow - less room inside
Internal ballasted sheel keel- more engineering and expense.

But high aspect fin- have to deal with draft restrictions
Full or cut away- don't point as well, more wetted surface ( parasitic drag) downwind
centerboard- more complexity, harder to get adequate righting arm.
Never owned a centerboard but have all of the rest.
Wonder if a cheribini like boat of 36-40' without the extensive wood work and detail would sell enough to make a production run cost effective in today's market.
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  #668  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

What bugs me is people think full keels, ALL full keels automatically don't point very well. My boat with main and working jib gets 35degrees off the wind...but closer as a cutter rig. This isn't pinching it, but moving along comfortably. My boat is a high aspect w/a large fore triangle (J measurement=47% length of the boat) either or both of those would make for good pointing ability.
My keel isn't a "cut away" but isn't a "long full keel".......the deepest point of my keel is the base of the rudder post (maybe that great big huge rudder is why my boat isn't hard to get across the wind, another thin attributed to ALL full keels)
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  #669  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Didn't know there was any boat that will sail to weather at 35 degrees in open ocean where there is 2 meter or better slop. Even the Mason 44 could sail to 35 degrees in front of Port Townsend or the Hood Canal, but never under ocean conditions, there sure is a big difference. Now that we know there is one boat out there that can sail at 35 degrees in open ocean does anyone else know of more?

We sailed our Mason in a conservative manner even in a following sea. But if we had left too much sail up I know that a full cutaway would have wanted to round up when sailing down an ocean swell. Out of the boats we know of that have been knocked down it was because the skipper had too much sail up and the design of the boat could not handle it and therefor rounded up.

I'm looking forward in the new boat to see how she handles more sail with the centerboard up and the leeward dagger board down in a following sea and a broad reach. So far the reports are good but until I've done it myself it is just hear say.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Hannah- sounds like you have a great boat. Was back and forth between the Boreal and Outbound. Talked it through repetitively with the admiral + hope we made a good decision and hope you did too. Looking at blogs of owners of both boats ( I'm not to good reading english let alone french) seems we will both be OK. Agree with you the spread sheets don't matter -it's what's your noon to noon and how you feel doing it. How is your galley arranged?
On some full keel boats I have had,especially the double enders, didn't like the way they would squat when running and long bowsprits make picking up mooring more difficult as you need a bridle.
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Last edited by outbound; 03-12-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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