Full or fin keel? - Page 68 - SailNet Community
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post #671 of 847 Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

To get to know my boat better I put up too much sail to see what I could learn........firstly it takes alot to get the boat over to 40 (from it's preferred 30 degrees) and keep it there......it would round up when it got over to 45 degree.
Because of the weight of my boat it isn't affected as much by 2'chop as would a light weight fin keel (someone mentioned the "pounding" fin keels were known for earlier in this thread). There is alot of flare at the bow with the original intention of keeping the cockpit dry, the extra buoyancy there would case problems if the boat did not have a decent amount of chain in the chain locker (some lighter boats are designed with the intention of rode/chain combinations)....I have heard it refereed to as "saucy". Going into 15' waves at about 4kts under power, the cockpit remained relatively.
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post #672 of 847 Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

If I were to go with a "production boat" that fit my personal style I would probably pick a Han Christian, for a fin keel I have already mentioned I would choose the Scanmar 40
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post #673 of 847 Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Think pounding is more a reflection of the entry of the boat throught the water and it's dynamics. Both the Boreal and the Outbound make every effort in design to have favorable gyradius ( weight in center of boat). Both have fine entries. Neither will pound. Appendages are very different. Similarly Cheribinis due to extremely fine entry and narrow hull were known to not pound. Boreal is light,somewhat Outbound heavier, Cheribini much heavier. Due to design all will be very comfortable boats. Agree Outbound in part makes use of it's weight to improve ride but that it not the major determinant in my understanding.
Weight in a cruising boat is an interesting thing. You spend huge money getting rid of weight. Then put heavy fuel, water,stores,anchor chain in it. Did a Bermuda on a tri. Captain/owner was concerned about the weight we had in our bags as we carried our kit aboard. He was absolutely right in the setting of a race.

s/v Hippocampus
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post #674 of 847 Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Didn't know there was any boat that will sail to weather at 35 degrees in open ocean where there is 2 meter or better slop. Even the Mason 44 could sail to 35 degrees in front of Port Townsend or the Hood Canal, but never under ocean conditions, there sure is a big difference. Now that we know there is one boat out there that can sail at 35 degrees in open ocean does anyone else know of more?
...
A modern performance cruiser, if it is specially good going upwind can do that providing it has enough wind. Last year I had a very enjoyable sail between Islands making 6.5K against 1.5/2.0 m short period waves with 18K apparent wind pointing at 27/28º. In the Atlantic, even with bigger waves, but with normal ocean waves (and not those nasty ones you have in the Med) I would be pointing probably the same but doing 7/7.5K.

Hannah, sailing a modern performance cruiser has its advantages...as well as its disadvantages. Pointing and speed are the advantages. A more limited carrying load capacity a smaller tankage and a bigger draft the disadvantages.

Regards

Paulo


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post #675 of 847 Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Hannah- sounds like you have a great boat. Was back and forth between the Boreal and Outbound. Talked it through repetitively with the admiral + hope we made a good decision and hope you did too. Looking at blogs of owners of both boats ( I'm not to good reading english let alone french) seems we will both be OK. Agree with you the spread sheets don't matter -it's what's your noon to noon and how you feel doing it. How is your galley arranged?
On some full keel boats I have had,especially the double enders, didn't like the way they would squat when running and long bowsprits make picking up mooring more difficult as you need a bridle.
Outbound, Glad to hear you found the boat you and the admiral really want to sail. It is so important that the both of you are happy with the purchase. We spend a lot of money on our dreams and to know you made a purchase that both can live with even though there can be some things that are not perfect when you get to know that boat. But the selection is a moment of satisfaction for both crew members. You have a beautiful boat and one we would have considered if we had not had such a desire for the aluminum center boarder.

We decided on our new boat choice for many reasons. Both being 60 we wanted to have a new experience in our years of sailing, sort of feeling new energy in what we love to do. This will be our last purchase of a serious boat. We think we made the right choice for us but until I sail her seriously I won't know if it will fit us as we envision. Good thing is if we are uncomfortable with her I already have buyers for her at more than we payed for her, few boats are that way but the small market for a boat like ours is very strong. There are sailors out there who want to do things far more adventurous than we do who want a boat such as the Boreal. But we are excited about sailing a modern designed boat such as ours, we are experienced sailors of long distant cruising and look forward to the benefits that boats like our offer. We were convinced of this after our last cruise through the S. Pacific and seeing all the French aluminum centerboards going every where one can imagine and always happy with their product.

I noticed you mentioned that you thought the centerboard boat may be a bit more difficult to sail, I think that is what you were saying. I thought the same also at first but after sailing the companies boat and talking first hand with other Boreal owners who are going everywhere I think it is an easy boat to sail in all conditions. Guess we will be finding out soon. We are looking forward to doing a hard month or so of sea trials and enjoying the learning process of a different designed boat than what we have always sailed. A big part of our next adventure is the boat itself.

Oh, on the galley. We know it is not what we are used too. We have always cooked well on passage and will change our ways to the European style of cooking good meals before passage and putting them away for rough weather. Boreal has bent over backwards in making a more secure galley for us and we appreciate the effort.

Good luck with the new boat, enjoy the adventure.
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post #676 of 847 Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Hmmmmm, so if building an old boat out of newer space age materials is still making it an old boat design......Why the hell are folks building the old "J-Boat" from the early 1900 America's cup boats?!?!?!?!? Or has the rules of the J-class boats changed such that they can? I thought the basic design, specs etc were kept the same, but hulls made of aluminum, carbon spars, laminate sails etc, but still needing to come in using the original design specs of that class.

I did see a full'ish keel boat today, boy was that a deep sucker! 6-7' on a mid 30' boat. Meanwhile a bit earlier a DuFour 34(e) was put in the water that has a blinking shoal keel! Shallower than my 28' boat. Has a blinken gift rating to boot! I can still beat it boat for boat, when it should be a good minute a mile faster than me! But that is another story.

Marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
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post #677 of 847 Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo,
You claim to have sailed at 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28degrees. That equals an angle of about 43 degrees and 13k of True wind.
CONGRATULATIONS: That is the same as an 80 year old Full keel, heavy displacement, 36' William Atkin design.
What did you say your boat was?

Last edited by Oregonian; 03-13-2013 at 09:45 AM.
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post #678 of 847 Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Hannah2- You folks are much more experienced than my wife and I. Life should always be a learning curve. I don't know if ultimately the Boreal would be more difficult to sail. We felt at this time it might be too big a mouthful to easily swallow whereas the Outbound is a fast, very comfortable boat with less variables to deal with. It's speed,size, equipment, design puts it at the edge of our comfort zone as regards ? too much to handle. It's the largest boat I will ever own and first I would have no concerns about sailing "around the clock". Similar to the Boreal there is a small active market for them. Very few are listed as they are sold before listing occurs. Compared to you we are newbies. Decided to ride a Mercedes not a Lambo for our first big trip down the road. We too are in our 60's. Looking forward to all powered winches,dutchman,every lead aft but still in a boat that we can handle if everything breaks. Keel wet and stick dry- all the best to you and yours

s/v Hippocampus
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post #679 of 847 Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
Paulo,
You claim to have sailed at 6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28degrees. That equals an angle of about 43 degrees and 13k of True wind.
CONGRATULATIONS: That is the same as an 80 year old Full keel, heavy displacement, 36' William Atkin design.
What did you say your boat was?
Do yo mean that the hundred year old designed William Atkin's make 35º true wind against 2.0m short waves?

Believe in what you want. I would take for an ignorant any person that think that the performance of an old designed full keeler that was not even a race boat in its days can be remotely compared with the performance of any modern performance cruising sailboat. If the boat is specially good upwind the deference will be huge in pointing ability.

Anyway I had said 27/28º. If we consider 27 (the boat was oscillating between 25 and 29 to pass the waves powerfully without losing speed) that is properly a more correct value you will have a true wind speed of 12.6K to a True wind angle of 40.6º. Even if the apparent angle was 28º it would give a true wind of 42º. I have sailed enough boats, including performance boats to know that is a very good performance given the sea condition. My boat is particularly good upwind, it is a modern performance cruiser with 2.25m of draft and Kevlar racing sails.

My previous boat, a 2002 Bavaria 36 was able to do over a plotted coursed course and angle of about 45 degrees (in normal Ocean conditions, not on the ones that I was talking about). I know for experience that the Bavaria 36 pointed better about 5º degrees of what an Oceanis 395 can do.

An Oceanis 395, the one with the deep draft, will outperform by many degrees an hundred years old Wilian Atkin's designed 36ft. My current boat outperform the Bavaria 36 (with long keel and premium sails) by about 8 to 5 degrees, much more in difficult conditions like the ones I was describing.

But of course, anyone is free to think what he wants. Look for a recent thread about pointing ability and plotted courses and you will come back to reality.

Regards

Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 03-13-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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post #680 of 847 Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
...It's the largest boat I will ever own and first I would have no concerns about sailing "around the clock". Similar to the Boreal there is a small active market for them. Very few are listed as they are sold before listing occurs. Compared to you we are newbies....
If we come to car analogy your's would be a good sedan designed 10 years ago. Hannas's boat would be a modern four well drive with a powerful engine. I don't think that the performance of the Boreal (except downwind) would be better than the one from the Outbound (as few four will drives will out perform 10 years old good sedan). The difference regarding the Boreal will concern a bigger flexibility, a much stronger hull to impact and the possibility to explore much more safely remote places, due not only by that difference in resistance but also due to its very reduced draft and the possibility of beaching the boat.

Face to bad weather the boat can take refuge at 5 m of the shore where the wind and waves will be much lesser while other boat as to stay 100m away, exposed to much stronger winds and swell. That's why that comparison with a powerful 4 wheel drive makes sense.

Regards

Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 03-13-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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