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  #681  
Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

A good comparison to 4-wheel drive is people who have 4-wheel drive think they can go anywhere, until they discover otherwise. Most people don't realize the true power and fury nature is capable of.
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  #682  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo- again we will agree to disagree. Would note builder has several orders for Outbound 46s to be built after mine. I've tried to explain to you why this hard fact is true. Boat is much more expensive than buying used.Usually none on used market. Final price about the same as Hannah's excellent boat. Can you explain why repetitively people are making a decision you think is illogical? Of the ones I have been in contact with Outbound owners are educated,forward thinking people not put off by new technologies or designs.
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  #683  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
A good comparison to 4-wheel drive is people who have 4-wheel drive think they can go anywhere, until they discover otherwise. Most people don't realize the true power and fury nature is capable of.


Wuffy,

You are so out of touch with the 4 wheel cruising world. We are not talking about Most people here! I can tell you that sailors buying expedition boats know what they are doing and have far more experience than most people including you and me. You are always negative in any post you make and always defending your beautiful boat when you don't need to. We know your boat is one of the greatest ever designed. That being said you need to know its limitations and like any of our boats it has limitations, learn them.

Who cares if most people don't realize the true power and fury nature is capable of. I think PCP was trying to compare differences in boat designs. Not about most people, he didn't mention people at all . But seeing you were talking most people, I can promise you that the few who buy 4 wheel boats and high performance cruising boats fully understand the power of nature as they have been seriously sailing a long time. They understand how their boat handles in serious weather and the risks of maybe having to sail in that weather. They also understand they they can't go anywhere only fools think they can go anywhere at any time.

You need to know that 99% of those who are out sailing long distance and know what they are doing far more than you or me do not come to the internet sites. Maybe some day if you ever do set sail you will understand.

You have a great boat but honestly I would rather hear what troubles you about your boat, that way we all can learn something.

Shed boys don't whine.

Cheers
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  #684  
Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- again we will agree to disagree. Would note builder has several orders for Outbound 46s to be built after mine. I've tried to explain to you why this hard fact is true. Boat is much more expensive than buying used.Usually none on used market. Final price about the same as Hannah's excellent boat. Can you explain why repetitively people are making a decision you think is illogical? Of the ones I have been in contact with Outbound owners are educated,forward thinking people not put off by new technologies or designs.
I like the Outbound. I don't think it is illogical to buy that boat that I consider a very good one. I didn't know that you had bought it new. The only thing I said is that that design is 12 years old and that in my opinion you can notice that.

Comparing with the European market the American market is a smaller and there are a lot less competition in what regards for instance boats like the Outbound. In Europe a brand, even one with expensive boats like HR, Malo, Najad or Southerly could not have the same model for 12 years without updating the hull and keel according with the latest design developments. Costumers would stop to buy that boat to buy more modern ones from the competition. Six years is pretty much the limit for almost all. More than that and the designs become out dated.

That is what I said and I did not wanted to imply by any means that your boat is not a great boat.

Regards

Paulo
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  #685  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo- OK agree different markets also different environments. Still, believe for reasons mentioned before this boat makes more sense for me. Coming from China or France makes little difference to me in New England. Design 1y,15 y or 150y old doesn't matter to me. Only question is this the best boat for the use I am going to put it to.
Wuff- Hannah and Paulo have different knowledge bases and more experience than either of us. I think it wise to respect their opinions. I do agree with you that being driven by the market or desire to have "new and improved" when it doesn't fit your needs does not make sense. I know as a liveaboard we will not be circumspect about weight. We will eventually screw something up and need repairs, things will wear out, we like hot showers (even plumbed for washer/dryer) and AC in the heat, a furnace in the cold we like an easily run boat we understand and is beautiful in ours eyes, we like to cook but cleaning not so much ,we will never do the Southern Ocean, have no interest in high latitude sailing but will catch weather-extreme at times. The new boat is aimed at the market of two people living aboard for extended times and traveling country to country. It allows long term guests but optimizes that type of two person creature comfort cruising without sacrificing much if anything in speed nor seaworthiness. My discussion with Paulo is not about if newer boats are better but what better means. It's in this issue we disagree.
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  #686  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Outbound,

I like what you said about the market being driven by the desire to have newest and most improved but what we need is what fits our needs. But one thing I noticed in Europe is that sailors are really into sailboats far more than we are here. They have gone sailboat crazy and they have an astounding love about being on the water. They will sail a barn door if they have too, it's just crazy over there.

Now I'm sure some Europeans are just into new is cool and do not know a square knot from a weather fax. But so many Europeans are really into sailing well and buy their boat for the reasons that fit their needs. Those needs are different than ours in lots of little ways but in the end they sail to the same places as we do. I agree with Paulo that the European market is very sound for new designed boats. Look at the companies having a hard time in Europe and they are the ones more traditional design. If our market in N. America ever becomes strong again it will have to do what Paulo talks about, change designs as quick as new and better ideas come out to make it. Now that said I do not believe that everything new is better and mistakes will be made.

I love it that the market over there includes good sound sailboats at a price lots of folks can spend. We desperately need that in N. America or else we are not going to have any thing left to buy used or new.

Let us hope that more people understand what their needs are in a boat and get what they really need. I get a little nervous with our new boat on that note.

Hope I wasn't too hard on Wuffy but heck I want to know what he really thinks of his boat, the good and the not so good.

Cheers
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Not exactly on-topic but one of the things I like most about Paulo's Interesting boats thread is the exposure to the European market and the different mindset over there.

As a result my 'dream boat' - ie no financial restraints - would in all likelihood be from across the pond..

Hannah.. assume you're going to sail the boat out from Europe when you take delivery? Will she end up back in the PNW?
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  #688  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Was sad to see Malo go down. H - Love your spirit. Looked at a bunch of european boats including yours and some from N.Z./Oz. But the hard work was being honest with myself,accepting all the input from my loved ones, people who work on boats, other sailors and the industry types and thinking about the totality of this purchase not just how the boat moves through the water. Still totally convinced I made the right choice for the Admiral and me.
Hey- if we ever get together - Race ya
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  #689  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post


Wuffy,

You are so out of touch with the 4 wheel cruising world. We are not talking about Most people here! I can tell you that sailors buying expedition boats know what they are doing and have far more experience than most people including you and me. You are always negative in any post you make and always defending your beautiful boat when you don't need to. We know your boat is one of the greatest ever designed. That being said you need to know its limitations and like any of our boats it has limitations, learn them.

Who cares if most people don't realize the true power and fury nature is capable of. I think PCP was trying to compare differences in boat designs. Not about most people, he didn't mention people at all . But seeing you were talking most people, I can promise you that the few who buy 4 wheel boats and high performance cruising boats fully understand the power of nature as they have been seriously sailing a long time. They understand how their boat handles in serious weather and the risks of maybe having to sail in that weather. They also understand they they can't go anywhere only fools think they can go anywhere at any time.

You need to know that 99% of those who are out sailing long distance and know what they are doing far more than you or me do not come to the internet sites. Maybe some day if you ever do set sail you will understand.

You have a great boat but honestly I would rather hear what troubles you about your boat, that way we all can learn something.

Shed boys don't whine.

Cheers
I have found myself defending my boat against the people with the "latest, greatest, newest thing on the market is the only way to g" mindset....this thread is about hull design, I have no troubles related with my hull design. Some people might be uncomfortable with the way this boat likes to heel, but that is part of the design. I have yet to "put her through her paces" at sea, though the individual boat and other boats of the same design have racked up and impressive amount of sea miles....I have yet to.....I was told to get everything tuned and ready....then take her out and "beat the snot out of her".....in other words take the boat to it's limits and learn what it can and can't do.

As far as my comment about the 4 wheeling world, I am not commenting on the equipment used but rather the mentality of the people that use it.
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  #690  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Hmmmmm, so if building an old boat out of newer space age materials is still making it an old boat design......Why the hell are folks building the old "J-Boat" from the early 1900 America's cup boats?!?!?!?!? Or has the rules of the J-class boats changed such that they can? I thought the basic design, specs etc were kept the same, but hulls made of aluminum, carbon spars, laminate sails etc, but still needing to come in using the original design specs of that class.
Good question, Marty. You forgot to mention that building an old J-Boat like this can't be done without a lot more $$$ than you'd need to buy an Oyster!!...

The answer is that some of these old Class designs were almost perfection in themselves (thinking J-Boats, 22-square-metres, 6-metres, Flying Fifteens, Dragons, etc.) and being such incredible fun to race meant that enough have survived over the years in various parts of the world to keep the Class alive. Clever people in the Class Associations then tweak the rules enough to allow advances in materials to be used in construction whilst maintaining the original design (complete with known flaws in some cases!) intact.

If you're curious, have a look around the CIM website.

Even though boat-speed and handling is roughly the same in the same wind conditions, it's a very, very different sailing experience racing to windward in an over-canvassed heavyweight Gentleman's Yacht one day and a lightweight Plastic Fantastic the next - particularly in a stiff breeze. Personal taste.. that's why people spend their fortunes doing it.

Paulo should try it one day.
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Last edited by Classic30; 03-13-2013 at 07:52 PM.
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