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  #691  
Old 03-13-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Was sad to see Malo go down. ..
What do you mean?

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  #692  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

thought I read one of the scandanavian yards was in bankruptcy. guess I got it wrong.- my bad
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  #693  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Not exactly on-topic but one of the things I like most about Paulo's Interesting boats thread is the exposure to the European market and the different mindset over there.

As a result my 'dream boat' - ie no financial restraints - would in all likelihood be from across the pond..

Hannah.. assume you're going to sail the boat out from Europe when you take delivery? Will she end up back in the PNW?
The interesting boat thread has to be one of the greatest threads on sailing of all time. Eventually I think N. Americans will look to the European market more if they want a new boat. And with the quality of the N. American used market aging and the amount of work required to bring a boat up to where it needs to be it is starting to get slim pickings out there. I'm not talking about 3000 dollar boats but the boats that most want now in the 40 foot range. A lot of them are 20, 30 to 40 years old and getting very tired. The new boat market I believe will pick up not because the economy is picking up but because a lot of people who want to do some serious sailing be it day, coastal or long range cruising will have to take a serious look at all the options available. That's what may have happened in Europe maybe they ran out of good used boats and turned in the other direction. Paulo would know more on that. If N. Americans do start to look to Europe in numbers it can only be good for the new boat market here. Designers and boat building companies here will be encouraged to start up some newer designs and build them. I hope that anyway and I hope they will build quality if it happens.

Faster, I don't know if the new boat will make it back to the North West. We have talked about it as an option but we talk lots of ideas for the next 5 years. But we are taking it one day at a time. If we have plans it will be to leave Europe when the crossing season starts to the carib then through the Canal and back to the Pacific as fast as we need to go. We would like to get up to the Carolines this trip and maybe from there we would decide to head North then East back to the PNW. It would be fun to sail into the Straits after five years away. But who knows, we are really interested in the rivers of Borneo and PNG and maybe from there to S. Africa. We have even talked about hanging out in Europe for a year or if we get through the Panama Canal and have had enough we could bash up to the Sea of Cortez which we love and just becoming Cortez bums like many do. If we were 40 I'd be heading for the high lats, no I guess not! I love the warm sea and the tropical beautiful women. Someone else can have the polar bears.
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Last edited by Faster; 03-13-2013 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Fix quote
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  #694  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

hannah, Jeanneau and Beneteau are building a number of the 30-40' boats in South Carolina. Although it might be north carolina! do not remember totally off the top of my head. The smaller sizes are not worth the cost to hip across that atlantic. I believe another European company is building stock Mini 6.5 boats in Texas, as again, a 22' boat is not worth the cost to ship across per say. Altho not sure how the Flying tiger 10m was getting shipped across the pacific to here.....none the less one is looking at 10-20K to ship boats from Europe to here in the nw etc. Hence why a number of years ago, beneteau started up the plant in SC, WHen things got slow, Jeanneau joined the plant so both could be better setup to compete here. 36' Jeanneaus the price did close to 20K less for a US built one than one built in Europe. The only thing built here per say is the hull and deck. The wood parts are still made in Europe, but shipped here on pallets and installed.

But I do agree, I do not really see any US companies that are building anything high tech per say. C&C and Tartan kinda sorta was for a bit......the new 101 looks promising. Santa Cruz has not taken off with any of those newer models that are nice and reasonably fast. Even the New York YC when they had a boat built for them, went with Swan! THere were a few that went after the project, including one NA setup, but even at half the cost did not get the contract!

In the end, I will prefer a fin over a full'ish keel. ALtho if I could somehow afford an old 12M, would settle for a 6M.......something about one of them.......But for general cruising and sailing, My Jeanneau works fine, altho wish I had a newer version!

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  #695  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

blt2ski, Yes we have a half dozen or so builders and I guess that is better than none at all. When you look at Europe though I see more than that just in the north of France. Maybe Paulo knows how many sailboat companies building boats from 10 meters up in Europe. Most of those companies seem to do well in a crowded market.
I don't think the Europeans have more money than we have at hand and the population base is close to ours. N. Americans love to sail too so I can't understand why our market is so bad. Maybe it is because we have lost our imagination or just isolated, I don't know, I wish I did know the answers.

When I read the blogs on these sailing forums the folks from N. America are still thinking old design for the most part. Old designs work very well in many cases, I've sailed them for 40 years. But I think we are going to have to get the bug and see what the rest of the world is seeing that we are not. If N. Americans can find out what the Europeans see in the new designs maybe we will get excited enough for adventure capitalists to front the money for new designs and new companies building more outstanding boats here in the new world. I like what they are doing over on Attainable Adventure Cruising in putting together a great seaworthy boat as more of an entry into long distance sailing for $200,000 USA. At least someone is trying hard and if they make it all come true I hope they build them in N. America.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Hannah,

Same thing with cars and trucks to a degree, their is the North American market, then there is the REST of the world market. neither is the same overall. You can get a toyota celica last I heard with 4-5 engine options, NONE of which are available here in the NA. Smaller cars wither turbo diesels that get twice the mpg of the NA gas rigs! Or rigs with twice the HP as we have here with better mpg's.......

Boats are kind of the same design build quality if you will to a degree. It an us against them kind of world......now if we can get folks to go metric.......maybe.........

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Re: Full or fin keel?

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thought I read one of the scandanavian yards was in bankruptcy. guess I got it wrong.- my bad
Najad has filed for bankruptcy
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  #698  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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thought I read one of the scandanavian yards was in bankruptcy. guess I got it wrong.- my bad
Just got the wrong shipyard It is Najad. It has been bought since then but they are not out of trouble. They had a very good time before the crisis and increased the size of its operation making the shipyard bigger and hired more people. Bad timing.... the crisis struck immediately after that.

Besides this is a classic case of what I was telling you about a need to continuously keep improving the boats in a very competitive market: Najad are great boats but their rate of innovation and up grade of the boats was just not keeping up with the competition ( HR, X yachts cruising line and Malo) and clients started to disappear). The problem is not quality or the interior it is sail performance and the ones that think that does not count even on luxury cruisers are wrong, at least in Europe.

The guys that bought that, a motor company did not done what was needed: Or firing 2/3 of the staff and have a very small firm making high quality conservative boats, for a very small clientele or investing massively in one or two new new up to date models and keep the staff competing for the main market in the Luxury cruisers segment.

I guess they didn't have the means for the second one and labor laws in Sweden prevented the first one.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
....
But I do agree, I do not really see any US companies that are building anything high tech per say.....

marty
Marty I guess you forgot J boats the American boat that is more sold in Europe than in the US

For some of the most interesting models they just make them in France. I mean not in the US and France but only in France. If you want a J122, one of my preferred boats, they just ship you one from France

Also I guess we can consider Corsair trimarans hig-tech boats. The only problem with Corsair is that they are in the US. I guess that they should do the same as J boats and move to Europe, at least for the bigger boats. I am sure the sales would increase substantially.

The problem in the US is the market I mean the proportion between motor boats and sail boats. Guys that have money buy in America a hugely bigger proportion of motor boats compared with sailboats.

Some years ago I had a look at all Boat show data in what concerning the percentage of sailboats compared with motorboats and the difference between Europe and US was huge not 2 times less, maybe 10 times less. That is the real problem. You need money, lots of it flowing to have a flourishing market. You need that the guys that have the money to change his boat anytime a more faster or nicer boat comes to the market start to buy sailing boats instead of motorboats or fast cars.

Without that you will not have a competitive market. imagine what would happen to the American automobile market if many didn't change for a new ride after 3 or 4 years and started to maintain and recover 20, 30 and 40 years old cars. Imagine all those huge car junkyards empty and all those cars circulating. Can you imagine what would happen to the competitiveness of the American car Industry face to others where they ditch older cars on a junkyard and keep buying new cars? I mean regarding means for innovating and researching?

I guess that is the American problem in what regards sailboats competitiveness: General interest in sailing.

Compare interest in sailing in US and France and you will understand why sailboat industry is so big in France and why the market is so competitive. Not only in France. The interest in Sailing in Italy and North of Europe is also big. Look at a small country like Denmark and look at the huge production of high quality top sail boats: X yachts, Dragonfly, Luffe, Nordship, Nordborg and I am sure there are much more small companies that I don't know about. Imagine that on a country with a bit more than 5 million people and you get the general picture.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-14-2013 at 08:46 AM.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Beyond the boat another problem for US buyers is the totality of trying to spec a semi custom boat built in another country, coordinating sale of prior boat, importation,warrenty work, insurance,financing and service after sale etc. Large production builders like B+J have this worked out but smaller builders-not so much. Making multiple varied innovations to accomendate my 6' and wife's 4'10" as well as sourcing from around the world was easy with Phil.Walking through the "soft costs" and making use of cheap money with investment returns much higher than loan money was easy working with people here. Don't think that will be the case until the infra structure for boat building beyond just the molds and tooling in the US is once again established. Valiant had a 35y run with boats that were little changed in basic design in large part because they did it once and did it right. This occurred at a time of massive innovation in N.A.s thinking and the US market was hot.
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