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  #711  
Old 03-15-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Daledog, since your posting I have observe a number of ridiculous comments concerning ocean going boats. Your reference was a cal 9.2. A 30 footer. I know exactly what you are referring to as I have a lot of experience with this and many other similar sized boats. The most ridiculous of the comments? Hannah2 said “The new designs being built in Europe have solved those problems for open ocean crossings” Another by Outbound, “ability to point and make a good days run in light/moderate air remain failings of most full keeled boats. PCP? Too numerous to bother with. ON THE SMALLER BOATS that are used for long distance sustained cruising, the problems created by the ocean have not been solved by any of the new boat designs. As the boat gets lighter, it gets less comfortable – Do not take this lightly. As the boat becomes heavier with the 3000# of stuff you need, the boat becomes much slower. In fact, it will become slower than the boat that was designed heavier in the first place. A heavier full keeled boat is sailed differently in light air than a lighter fin keeled boat. It can get the job done just as well. For anyone on this forum or elsewhere to imply that a full keel boat cannot point as well in the ocean as an equally ladened fin keeled boat, in the smaller sizes, is either very inexperienced, ignorant, or pushing some other agenda.
At the very least, the comments made by Paulo and some of the others, fall into the Gross Exaggeration category. Pointing angles and speed of the smaller, heavily ladened sailing boats has improved Very little in the past 80 years. For the most part, if some boat is doing something better than another then it is also doing something worse than another. There is simply no over-riding benefit to crossing an ocean, Down wind or Upwind, in light wind, or heavy air, on a fin keeled, or light weight, ocean voyaging, live-aboard, cruising sailboat.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Oregonian- You make some comments which have merit and some which do not. My new boat has a solid glass hull and 28,000 displacement. Most of that weight is in the center of the boat with 200g of fuel and 200g of water under the saloon sole. It flies but is no light weight flier. The design request was for fast cruising with the assumption extra weight in the form of stores and machinery would be put aboard. It will and has massively outperformed older full keeled designs in myriad open ocean crossings. It is more comfortable in every way as c/w older full keeled designs. However, you are right a boat is a complex system and moderation so no flaws are extreme requires limiting the benefits of other design elements.Schumacher added weight (and expense) in the engineering of the design so that in all critical areas the working loads are meer fractions of the load to failure. Paulo and Hannah 2 are right that there have been significant performance benefits in the last 10yrs. but I believe some come at a cost of liveability of the boat.Use of modern materials and engineering ( scrimp infusion techniques,carbon,spectra etc.) have not resulted in decrease in strength or safety. Boreal mailed me a cd and we communicated through the net. I was psyched to take the trip to france and investigate futher. I had no issue at any level with the boat but when my wife said "I can't live on that boat" unfortunately it was off the list. She saw multiple Outbounds with multiple different interior plans. She went sailing on one. On the drive back- I love it, it's beautiful,rides so nice,I feel so safe,everything is where it needs to be. Done
One could say a bristol channel cutter at 28' or my beloved PSC34(not full keeled) make sense as proven small "blue water" boats but in the 35-50' range for open water full keeled boats no longer make sense.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post

Daledog, since your posting I have observe a number of ridiculous comments concerning ocean going boats. ...

The most ridiculous of the comments? Hannah2 said “The new designs being built in Europe have solved those problems for open ocean crossings”

Another by Outbound, “ability to point and make a good days run in light/moderate air remain failings of most full keeled boats.

PCP? Too numerous to bother with. ON THE SMALLER BOATS that are used for long distance sustained cruising, the problems created by the ocean have not been solved by any of the new boat designs. ...

For anyone on this forum or elsewhere to imply that a full keel boat cannot point as well in the ocean as an equally ladened fin keeled boat, in the smaller sizes, is either very inexperienced, ignorant, or pushing some other agenda.

....
There is simply no over-riding benefit to crossing an ocean, Down wind or Upwind, in light wind, or heavy air, on a fin keeled, or light weight, ocean voyaging, live-aboard, cruising sailboat.
Jesus you seem pretty convinced at what you are saying. The fact that nobody with enough money to buy a new cruising sailboat is having one, the fact that no NA is proposing a new designed full keeler, the fact that no production shipyard is offering any does not makes you suspicious of your certitudes?

Certainly you think that guys that circumnavigated like Hannah or even more experienced sailors that once had full keelers for bluewater cruising and today chose fin keelers are hugely mistaken in their choices and don't know the advantages of a type of boat over another.

Certainly you think that all the companies that make offshore boats that once proposed to their clients full keels, then modified fin keels and now fin keels don't know what they are doing and the same with their clients that are just mislead by devious propaganda from guys like me, a master conspirator.

There is out there a vast conspiracy against full keel boats a conspiracy that one day will be fully exposed by guys like you

You talk generically but give a stronger incidence on smaller boats. Yes, a smaller heavy boat, full keel or not, it will be more seaworthy than a light boat of the same size. But who wants a cramped slow heavy small boat if by the same price it can have the same seaworthiness in a much bigger light sailboat that it will be much faster, as comfortable with a much bigger interior space? (size matters to sea motion as well weight to price).

That is what discovered Northshore one of the last to make small heavy blue-water cruisers before given up and turn to more modern bluewater cruisers. Northshore discovered that soon enough to survive, all the other that persisted bankrupted. This does not tell you nothing, besides the conspiracy theory?

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I have read many of Oregonian's posts in the past few years. Clearly he is very experienced and fully understands the strengths and weaknesses of full keels. Based on his comments, he knows his boat, and has learned how to work around most of its liabilities to a level which is acceptable to him. In these discussions, he frames his arguments in a way that is consistent with his wants and needs in a boat. I admire all of that.

But in these kinds of discussion often the gaps between the presented points of view come down to how each person frames the argument. So for example, in Oregonian's post above, he rightly points out that offshore capable distance cruisers need to carry a lot more 'stuff' than a coastal cruiser, and that the amount of excess carrying capacity is generally proportionate to the displacement of the boat. He is correct in saying that a lighter boat will have a more limited excess carrying capacity, and to some extent, certainly when considering heave, a lighter boat will have a less comfortable motion. So, by setting up the discussion the way he does, if comparing boats of the same length on deck and similar waterline length, the boat of the heavier dry displacement would in theory have greater excess carrying capacity and a more comfortable motion.

But here is the short-coming of framing the argument in that manner. If we compare two boats of equal displacment, the modern design will be comparatively much longer (perhaps 20-40percent) on deck and waterline than a so-called traditional heavy displacement cruiser. And so if we were compare a modern design to a traditional design of equal displacement, the modern boat's longer water plane, better dampening, higher roll moments of inertia carried lower, greater stability and consequently, greater sail carry capacity will result in a boat which offers better seaworthiness, motion comfort, stability, excess carrying capacity, ease of handling, performance in all conditions, at a similar initial cost. But all that comes with the liabilities of higher slip and hauling costs, and deeper draft.

In other words, in my mond, neither side is wrong as each poster is framing the question.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 03-15-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Jesus you seem pretty convinced at what you are saying. The fact that nobody with enough money to buy a new cruising sailboat is having one, the fact that no NA is proposing a new designed full keeler, the fact that no production shipyard is offering any does not makes you suspicious of your certitudes?

Certainly you think that guys that circumnavigated like Hannah or even more experienced sailors that once had full keelers for bluewater cruising and today chose fin keelers are hugely mistaken in their choices and don't know the advantages of a type of boat over another.

Certainly you think that all the companies that make offshore boats that once proposed to their clients full keels, then modified fin keels and now fin keels don't know what they are doing and the same with their clients that are just mislead by devious propaganda from guys like me, a master conspirator.

There is out there a vast conspiracy against full keel boats a conspiracy that one day will be fully exposed by guys like you

You talk generically but give a stronger incidence on smaller boats. Yes, a smaller heavy boat, full keel or not, it will be more seaworthy than a light boat of the same size. But who wants a cramped slow heavy small boat if by the same price it can have the same seaworthiness in a much bigger light sailboat that it will be much faster, as comfortable with a much bigger interior space? (size matters to sea motion as well weight to price).

That is what discovered Northshore one of the last to make small heavy blue-water cruisers before given up and turn to more modern bluewater cruisers. Northshore discovered that soon enough to survive, all the other that persisted bankrupted. This does not tell you nothing, besides the conspiracy theory?

Regards

Paulo


Paulo, maybe something is being lost in the translation here...I think where you cross the line is when you make untrue statements about other boats, some of us are trying to tell you is that we have a different opinion. Many of us don't need to be convinced by you as to what boat we like, because we have already found out through experience what we like.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Paulo, maybe something is being lost in the translation here...I think where you cross the line is when you make untrue statements about other boats, some of us are trying to tell you is that we have a different opinion. Many of us don't need to be convinced by you as to what boat we like, because we have already found out through experience what we like.
Liking as nothing to do with a boat performance. I like traditional boats (full keel boats) and classic boats. They sail with a lot of character but if we look at performance as a sailboat (and I am talking about global performance, not only speed) they simply don't perform as well as modern fin keel boats. That is why NA don't design full keel boat anymore, whatever the use the boat is going to have, except if it is a replica of an old boat.

Please quote me regarding those untrue statements. You should not say that somebody say untrue things without referring exactly those things.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Liking as nothing to do with a boat performance. I like traditional boats (full keel boats) and classic boats. They sail with a lot of character but if we look at performance as a sailboat (and I am talking about global performance, not only speed) they simply don't perform as well as modern fin keel boats. That is why NA don't design full keel boat anymore, whatever the use the boat is going to have, except if it is a replica of an old boat.

Please quote me regarding those untrue statements. You should not say that somebody say untrue things without referring exactly those things.

Regards

Paulo
Being the "performance" is a subjective term, I would say liking a boat has a lot to do with performance, as defined by the boat owner.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
...
But in these kinds of discussion often the gaps between the presented points of view come down to how each person frames the argument. So for example, in Oregonian's post above, he rightly points out that offshore capable distance cruisers need to carry a lot more 'stuff' than a coastal cruiser, and that the amount of excess carrying capacity is generally proportionate to the displacement of the boat. He is correct in saying that a lighter boat will have a more limited excess carrying capacity, and to some extent, certainly when considering heave, a lighter boat will have a less comfortable motion. So, by setting up the discussion the way he does, if comparing boats of the same length on deck and similar waterline length, the boat of the heavier dry displacement would in theory have greater excess carrying capacity and a more comfortable motion.

...
Respectfully,
Jeff
Yes, of course you are right but displacement of a sailboat has not to do with Long keel boats neither with Fin keel boats. Keels are what we are discussing not displacement. That is true that full keel boats tend to be more heavy than fin keel boats but that is not always true, neither necessarily true.

There are full keel boasts relatively light and fin keel boat heavy. What I am saying is that a fin keel is more efficient than a full keel, not discussing light displacement versus heavy displacement. And I am not saying either that there are not well designed full keel boats and badly designed fin keel boats.

Take for instance the Vancouver 36, a fin keel boat that succeeded to the 34ft Vancouver (the 34 was basically a bigger 32 and the design is 30 year's old).

The 34:



and the 36:







When Taylor, from Camper & Nicholsons updated the design of The Vancouver 34, making it a 36 footer, altering the full keel to a fin keel and providing the boat with a more efficient hull, he didn't want to make a different type of boat. The type of boat is the same: a relatively heavy small blue water boat. He just wanted to make a better and more efficient sailingboat with the same basic characteristics. Regarding weight the fin keel boat is even proportionally heavier even considering that the 36 is two ft longer( 6.350kg to 9.260kg).

I am quite sure that if he designed a new updated version now, even if he maintained the weight, the shape of the of keel and ruder would be different and more efficient. Boat design is improving all the time and that has nothing to do with heavy or light boats or the type of boat (use) but with efficiency in what regards sailing in what concerns different boat uses.

Weight is a negative factor in what regards sail efficiency but when we want to make a small boat more seaworthy weight continues to be an important factor. For almost all it makes sense to have a bigger boat with the same weight of the smaller one with an increased stability and speed for about the same price but as you say each case is a case and one can prefer to have an heavier smaller boat for economic reasons linked with maintenance and marina prices. However the market shows that those sailors are very few and that kind of boat is almost nonexistent, I mean small heavy cruisers with offshore capacity on the new boat market.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo- just curious what do you think of Morris, Waterline,the more recent Shannons , the new PSC ketch. These are fairly substantial boats. There is a reason that even at a given LOA some folks still prefer a heavier, more substantial boat.This does not relate to construction method, length of boat or expense. Hope you would agree is it easier to get a performance multihull to go faster but for many they just don't make sense and they build anfd buy monohulls. Similarly, as a total experience performance as you define it is not the only parameter that goes in to the boat purchase. I find some features- especially the interiors of euro rockets ugly and not satisfying as regards ergonomics, expected aesethic enjoyment in fuure years and ease of maintenance. Te interior of my boat fo me is a warm, inviting place that will serve me and my wife into our 80s. We give up little or nothing in meaningful performance ( you have seen the polars and they remain outstanding). I agree with you the bulbed fin keel is a major advance. But some will say I don't want more than 6.5' in draft. Idon't want bulb extending in front of the fin. I don't want twin rudders. I do want my boat overbuilt and functional for me. That's why you see people with far more resources than me still buildng one offs you would deem conservative. You asked about aluminium in the past . If I had the resources I would die and go to heaven owning a K+M. Once again a design of well over a decade old.
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo- just went to the K+M website. They have two Bestewind 50s under construction. Can I tell you my birthday(GRIN)? Be you're best friend. Please..........

with respect and regards- just pulling your leg.
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