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  #721  
Old 03-15-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- just curious what do you think of Morris, Waterline,the more recent Shannons , the new PSC ketch. These are fairly substantial boats. There is a reason that even at a given LOA some folks still prefer a heavier, more substantial boat.This does not relate to construction method, length of boat or expense.
Sure, an heavier boat has nothing to do with full or fin keel or up-to-date hydrodynamics. In fact I prefer the design of the Outbound 44 to any of those boats. Some are really outdated like the Shannons and Pacific Seacraft other are slightly outdated like the Morris or the Waterline and I don't mean the interior but hull and keel design. In fact the only ones that are modern are the Classic line of Morris, that have modern under-bodies. That does not mean that they are not high quality boats with great interiors, all of them, in fact I can only judge then by the photos and reputation that is generally very high (as the prices).

Regarding the Outbound my opinion is that it is a remarkable good design for one 13 years old. I like the interior that seems to be of high quality, if a bit classic for my taste, the boat is not heavy and it has a decent sail area for that kind of boat. I am quite sure that if Carl Schumacher was still around he would be the first to want to update his design. The ballast effect could be maximized (only 30% is on the bulb) providing a more stiff boat and even if in what regards rocker the boat seems very modern, the shape of the hull shows some age and the beam could be brought more aft. Nothing big, but small improvements that would make for a better boat. I like the boat moderated beam. All in all, as I have said already, the Oubound 44 is a great boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Hope you would agree is it easier to get a performance multihull to go faster but for many they just don't make sense and they build anfd buy monohulls.
Of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Similarly, as a total experience performance as you define it is not the only parameter that goes in to the boat purchase.
Just to be clear, it is not as I define it. When I talk about performance here I am not talking just about speed, but pointing ability, stability downwind, sailing with less (or more heel), sea motion comfort, light wind performance, strong wind performance, reserve stability....all the factors that makes a sailboat a good sailboat in what regards its basic function: to sail and to sail well and safely. Different types of boats (for different uses) have different valuations in what regards the relative importance of these parameters.

We can also consider that the other function of a cruising boat is to provide a home, so we can also talk about performance in a way the boat satisfies better or worse the main requisites: Quantity and quality of the space, functionality, storage, tankage and so on. Again, different types of boats value these qualities more or less in what regards the sailing potential and most of the times these qualities (interior comfort) are detrimental to sail potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
I find some features- especially the interiors of euro rockets ugly and not satisfying as regards ergonomics, expected aesethic enjoyment in fuure years and ease of maintenance. Te interior of my boat fo me is a warm, inviting place that will serve me and my wife into our 80s. We give up little or nothing in meaningful performance ( you have seen the polars and they remain outstanding).
And then it is me that make generalizations
If you want to compare, compare your boats with what is comparable in terms of price and in what regards that we are talking about boats that have probably a slightly better performance, at least some, but I would not call them rockets and the quality of design and finish is as good as the one in your boat. We are talking about HR, Najad, XC Yachts or the likes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
I agree with you the bulbed fin keel is a major advance. But some will say I don't want more than 6.5' in draft. Idon't want bulb extending in front of the fin. I don't want twin rudders. ..
Sure, all cruising boats that are in the same class of yours have about that draft as standard and can have an optional reduced draft that will off course diminish the upwind performance.

About the twin rudders you left me confused. Why the hell you don't want something that will just add more control to your boat, will sustain less stress (and therefore will be more resistant) offer a double safety factor in the case one of them is hit by something (with one if you break it you are in trouble) and adds not more drag to the boat?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-16-2013 at 12:55 AM.
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  #722  
Old 03-15-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
If I had the resources I would die and go to heaven owning a K+M. Once again a design of well over a decade old....

Paulo- just went to the K+M website. They have two Bestewind 50s under construction. Can I tell you my birthday(GRIN)? Be you're best friend. Please..........
..
KM is Dutch a builder specialized in Aluminium. They build from several NAs and even if they purpose some models it is much a custom boat. They also make custom boats.

The Bestewind 50 is a very recent design from Gerard Dykstra that has a huge talent in designing modern boats that looks like classics. The boat was one of the nominees for the 2012 European boat of the year on the luxury class (last year).



Ok, I give you that one and you give me this one


Regards

Paulo
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  #723  
Old 03-16-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

PAULO, have you confused Oregonian with Jesus? Earlier I was just an “ignorant” Am I now an “ignorant Jesus”?
The reason I point out the sailing qualities of some full keeled boats is to help balance your gross exaggeration of the modern designed fin keeled boat. You have been misleading people on this forum (and others) for way too long. You have done many people a disservice with your claims. The change in design to a fin keel does NOT make all boats better. It will not insure that the boat will sail better in all cases. A short, heavy, boat with a fin keel will get pushed around in a twisting and rolling fashion a lot more than a boat with a full keel. If a boat is a full time, live-aboard, long range, cruiser, it will be a heavy boat; fin keel or not.
I have never, at any time, stated that all boats, of any length, benefit from having a full keel. I have always referenced “Smaller” boats, ie, 20 to 35 feet or so. I will say this to you for the 3rd time: The short, heavy, full keel, live-aboard/voyaging boat, will out perform the fin keel counterpart, in just about any condition.
PAULO, I sail a lot. Way more fin keels than full. Many boats “Right out of the box”. Where do I get my data? Frequently under the palm tree at the end of a long passage. If 2 boats leave port together and the Westsail 32 arrives after 19 days and the Pretorian 35 after 21 days, Well, that’s data. Repeat the scenario about 27 times. More data. Repeat similar scenarios about 130 times. More data. Throw in a few long distant races. More data. (Well over 1000 local sails - more data). The result: There is very little to merit the fin keel boat when used on the “SMALLER” sizes of long distance cruisers.
FASTER has said it is important for him to maneuver well in reverse. That is a good reason to own a fin keeled boat. Lin and Larry Pardey’s boat probably does not maneuver well in reverse. Are they “Ignorants” too?

One more thing: Please try to understand this. A person that buys a Dana 24, or a Westerly Centaur at 26’, or a Cape George 31, or a Westsail 32, probably did not secretly want a 40 to 50 foot boat. Some of you insist on comparing similar displacements of boats. That is your right, and some people will do that, but please don’t assume that all people want a longer boat. They do not.
outbound, I am familiar with the outbound 46. I am certain it is a great boat for you and your wife. Good luck, see you down the road. I will be in Raiatea in 4 weeks
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  #724  
Old 03-16-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought the 50 was a boat Dystra drew for himself ~10-15y ago for high latitude sailing. I thought the conversion from aluminium to glass was the recent event. Both are sweet boats but the interiors of some of the metal ones are gorgeous. He also drew a 45' version. Put a lifting keel in that and you have it covered for me.
Paulo- If you sailed in New England much you would not ask your last question. A lobster pot line isn't going to break a single or double rudderpost. Hell you could pick up my boat by it's rudderpost. Often when sailing with any kind of sea at night you see them at the last second. Dodging pick up buoys is a New England sport. May be wrong but over half the boats you mention are single rudder. Tried to get the features I wanted ( no metal tanks, no keel bolts, no portlights in the hull, no balsa etc.) and the layout modified - Outbound met these desires- others did not.
O- Hang in there kiddo. Just realize P+H have a lot of experience too. Wife saved up and brought some stress ease chairs. Have a rocker (design over 100y old). Guess which one I like after a hard days work. Still, sleep in a pencil post bed I made myself. My clothes are in a highboy I made from a 150 year old design. They work, are beautiful in my eyes and warm my black heart.(grin)
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  #725  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

O- ?at what LOA do you think the break from full to fin occurs?


P.S.- due to family expect to come back to N.E. time. to time. Still, gonna break my heart to have to empty the house.
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  #726  
Old 03-16-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
..If a boat is a full time, live-aboard, long range, cruiser, it will be a heavy boat; fin keel or not... There is very little to merit the fin keel boat when used on the “SMALLER” sizes of long distance cruisers....
I have never, at any time, stated that all boats, of any length, benefit from having a full keel. I have always referenced “Smaller” boats, ie, 20 to 35 feet or so. I will say this to you for the 3rd time: The short, heavy, full keel, live-aboard/voyaging boat, will out perform the fin keel counterpart, in just about any condition.
Woah, that is some particularization: So in your opinion full keel boast are only better if they are cumulatively:

Short heavy small boats, long rage cruisers intended for voyaging or living aboard.

That is particularizing almost ad infinitum Yes I agree that is the situation where a full keel loses less to a fin keel boat. That particularization of a boat is so narrow that on the huge European market with thousands of different boats proposed to different sailors I don't know of any modern design that fits the bill. But I do know of small heavy boast particularly suited for living aboard: the Sirius line, but they are fin keel boats:

The 31 and the 35:








Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
.. Some of you insist on comparing similar displacements of boats. That is your right, and some people will do that, but please don’t assume that all people want a longer boat. They do not.
Regarding small heavy boats compared with bigger sailing boats with the same weight and the same load capacity, it seems you didn't understand the point:

I explain the logic of that comparison: Budget, function and the price of the boat.

In boats with similar quality, weight more than size is a price indicator. Heavy small boats like the Sirius or the Vancoeuver (that was proposed till recently) cost the price of a much bigger lighter mass production sailboat. The Sirius 31 costs the price of a 37/38 mass production boat and the Vancouver 36 the price of a 42ft boat. The load each boat can carry, the smaller and the bigger one with the same price, are about the same but the bigger one offers a lot more interior space and space, as carrying load, is a much needed commodity to live abroad. The bigger boats are not only more comfortable in a seaway and safe or safer than the smaller ones.

There could be people that for the same budget would chose the smaller boat for living aboard but, as the market shows, that would be a small minority.

Of course, the used market, particularly the used market with very old boats introduces all kinds of distortions and it is possible that this price comparison does not apply anymore. Probably the heavy small boats devalued more than the bigger boats that once had the same price and now they cost less than bigger lighter boats that once costed the same.

We are talking about design and about Full Keel versus Fin keel and what matters regarding that is the state of the art, meaning modern boats and the efficiency of one system versus the other, not what you can find on the used market. In what regards the used market you have a limited choice and in some cases a full keel boat can be a better choice over a given fin keel boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post

... I have observed a number of ridiculous comments concerning ocean going boats. ...

The most ridiculous of the comments? Hannah2 said “The new designs being built in Europe have solved those problems for open ocean crossings”

Another by Outbound, “ability to point and make a good days run in light/moderate air remain failings of most full keeled boats.

PCP? Too numerous to bother with. ON THE SMALLER BOATS that are used for long distance sustained cruising, the problems created by the ocean have not been solved by any of the new boat designs. ...
....
There is simply no over-riding benefit to crossing an ocean, Down wind or Upwind, in light wind, or heavy air, on a fin keeled, or light weight, ocean voyaging, live-aboard, cruising sailboat.
Regarding this, when Hannah is talking about he is referring to bigger boats, boats that eventually cost the same price of the smaller heavy boats with living aboard capacity and he is referring to new designs. On the European market everybody that goes voyaging will prefer a bigger boat than a proportionally much heavier smaller one that costs the same and has a much inferior sail performances.

You assume that everybody that goes for long distance voyaging and extended periods of living aboard travels and lives with a lot of stuff. On this days of watermakers and digital information it can be otherwise and some that voyage do that on modern small light weight sailboats and those boats with an adequate charge will outperform in a stellar way any old designed small heavy weight full keeler, in 95% of the conditions.

I guess that a pleasure circumnavigation counts in your book as voyaging. Look at this couple on a 33ft boat that had crossed the Atlantic with an average well over 7k and are completing now his circumnavigation. On the passage between Cape Town and Bahia his average speed over the ground was 7.7K. And we are talking with a boat with a crew of two, the skipper and his wive.



I will not generalize saying this boat and travelling light and enjoying this kind of life will suit to all. You should do the same regarding saying: "There is simply no over-riding benefit to crossing an ocean, Down wind or Upwind, in light wind, or heavy air, on a fin keeled, or light weight, ocean voyaging, live-aboard, cruising sailboat."

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-16-2013 at 11:33 AM.
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  #727  
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Paulo- Your posts here and on the the other thread reflect a difference in the US v. European markets. Here in the rat race of the US there is a niche of sailors who although they have sailed their whole lives can only now in their 60s and 70s go cruising. They want to crusie the San Quins,east coast of US, the Carribean, the South Pacific, the Hebrides, the west coast of europe and north coast of the Med. THEY DON'T WANT TO GO VOYAGING. THEY WANT TO GO CRIUSING. They will make use of those advances that improve the quality of their lives. Comforts and aesethics are just as important to this group as performance. To paraphase Crealock-the "voyage" should equal the joy of the arrival. Have lots of screen on my boat-stll rather read a book.
The US water tourists don't have the same outlook as the 30 to 40 somethings taking off from europe.
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Old 03-16-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

I concede......I now realize it is impossible to defend a boat of my own personal taste against someone who feels that anything other than their personal taste, the "latest, greatest, cutting edge"(what ever that the marketing industry is pushing at the time) is an inferior boat.

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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
...
The US water tourists don't have the same outlook as the 30 to 40 somethings taking off from europe.
Most Europeans, unless they can take a sabbatic year, will only do extensive cruising at the retirement age that is for most mid 50's and now it is about 60 year's old, even not taking full pension.

Till then they do club racing, week end cruising or holiday's cruising and mostly they charter boats.

I knew a more than 70 year old guy that was cruising along on a Small dragonfly trimaran. He was coming from Sweden. I meet him in Portugal, he was bound to the Med. I guess we can call that extensive voyaging

Last year I was interested in a Salona 42 (fast performance cruiser) the owner was a 83 old sailor. He sell it to buy a new Grand Soleil 43, another fast performance cruiser. He cruises alone with its wife that is not much younger than him.

I guess it is a difference in perspective in part due to the lesser options on the American market, but that has certainly nothing to do with age.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 03-16-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I concede......I now realize it is impossible to defend a boat of my own personal taste against someone who feels that anything other than their personal taste, the "latest, greatest, cutting edge"(what ever that the marketing industry is pushing at the time) is an inferior boat.
This is not about my personal taste. If you go to the Interesting sailboat thread you will find all types of boats including traditional like you own and classic. I have said already that in what regards traditional boats I have a soft spot for them and I even owned one.

This thread is about Fin Keels versus Full keels design and performance. Has nothing to so with the superiority of a given sailboat but with the performance of both keels.

In what regards boat design a full keel is something from the past, not used anymore in boat design because there are more efficient keels available whatever is the boat use. NA don't use them anymore, it is as simple as that.

This does not mean that there is not great designs from the past with full keel that performs very well. But it means that when a NA wants to recreate a classic boat from the past (not a replica) does that using more efficient fin keels and spade rudders. I guess that says it all.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-16-2013 at 02:35 PM.
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